| Author |
Message |
    
Dave_g
Username: Dave_g
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:02 pm: | |
A couple of weeks ago there was a post (I cannot seem to find it) regarding the identification of a 2420. The guitar had a lot of cosmetic damage that looked kinda weird but familar to me.
I pulled out my "Near Mint" 2420 and to my HORROR discovered what was "Familar" about the cosmetic damage. That guitar, as well as my once "near Mint" guitar suffered from the "gassing" of the plastic parts !.. I knew of this phenomenom with the Jazzers like the 2630, but I did not think it was an issue with the LP clones of an earlier period. Apparently its the Faux Tortoise pickguard that is the culprit..
The purpose of this post is to provide a view into the process of repairing this beast...
Unfortunately I did not think of the ICW until I had already removed the offending parts (thus no "BEFORE" picture ! Heres the damaged parts, note the green corrosion and the Faux Tortoise pickguard...this corrosion also was apparent on the frets and the screws..
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Dave_g
Username: Dave_g
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:16 pm: | |
Check out the closeup of the green corrosion on the pickups. Keep in mind that these were very nice less than a year ago. The green crud actually goes thru the gold and the nickel underneatn and will eventually make a hole in the cover.
My goal is to replace the covers with new plain gold ones (not a perfect solution, but better than the corrosion I think). I will use a heat gun to melt the epoxy
When you heat the pup ,keep moving to insure that you melt the epoxy evenly. The stuff melts pretty fast so be carefull not to over heat.
The mounting bracket is soldered to the cover, so I broke those points with a small saw and soldering iron.
Heres the inside of a Super 80. Note the white bobbins (I have seen black and zebra's too). What in interesting to me is how badly this pickup is potted. Correct me if I am wrong but the purpose of potting a pickup with wax or epoxy is to ensure that the thin copper wires do not vibrate and create wolf tones..this epoxy doesn't even come near the windings. Note the Red and Black wires. If you wanted to split this coil (for instance for a trisound switch) you would extend the leads here.
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Dave_g
Username: Dave_g
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:19 pm: | |
Got the picts mixed up...previous pict shows how the epoxy gets clear when it melts,,,Note the Blue tape holding the bobbins together
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Dave_g
Username: Dave_g
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:20 pm: | |
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Dave_g
Username: Dave_g
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:26 pm: | |
OK heres a look at the other side of the pickup where you can see the leads..
The pickup is held to the cover by the epoxy..check out how little of this stuff was actually holding it in
I prepared the new cover by melting a little of the epoxy into the cover. Then I put the guts back into the new cover and heated it until it settled.
Finished !
Sure its not quite as nice as the embossed Super 80's, but it still retains the vintage vibe and looks great too !
I dressed the frets and replaced all the screws, now if I can only find the NOS parts box for the rest of the hardware ! |
Mattfrox
Username: Mattfrox
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:31 pm: | |
Nice topic. What do you mean by gassing? The plastic breakdown? How long with the git stored without use? Is there a preventative solution to gassing? |
Dave_g
Username: Dave_g
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:32 pm: | |
Matt, this issue has been discussed several times. Apparently the type of plastic used in the tortoise pickguards emits a corrosive gas over time. This gas will corrode any and all metal and plastic parts (BINDING) and causes irreversible damage. I have seen guitars that the entire pickguard and binding is crystalized and crumbling off (for some reason the PF 400's seem to be prone to this) Previous discussions have noted that heat may be a factor. This guitar became this way in around 10 months..previously the hardware was in "near mint" (not perfect) condition.The guitar was stored in the original case standing upright. (The case is now useless because this gas gets into the case and can, over time, cause additional damage-I have to toss the case).. |
Mattfrox
Username: Mattfrox
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:37 pm: | |
Dave,
Thanks. I did a search and saw some of the damage reported. Are newer plastics safer to use? |
Lvdvondel
Username: Lvdvondel
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 4:16 am: | |
I just purchased a near mint '78 PF300 with turtoise pick gard. The guitar has stayed in here case fore ages but there is no sign of any corrosion. Guess this guitar is the exception that confirms the rule... |
Sixvsix
Username: Sixvsix
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 6:07 am: | |
Dave,
That damn plastic!
Are your Super 80 covers totally wrecked or can you salvage them?
Are you going to keep the plain covers on or wait for some butterfly's to come up via another guitar/spares?
I have a chrome Super 80 cover you can have if you want to replate it.
six |
Talajuha
Username: Talajuha
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 9:48 am: | |
Has anybody ever asked any chemist or other specialist about this corrosion problem? Corrosion is an electrochemical phenomen and it requires damp in most cases to develop (e.g. rust). Or it works like a battery, one material gives electrons to an other and new combound is formed on it. Gas emitting plastic??? Acid? Could be, in a closed guitar case?
If you happen to know a chemist, ask him/her to tell more.
Juha |
Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 6:33 pm: | |
The binding is attached to the pickguard with ACETON (that's not an ICW member but an acid).
As a kid I once layed a small piece of dry FORMULA W (containing aceton) on my bedside table and it ate away a small piece of the finish overnight.
So the damp of this acid works as an electrolyte bridge and a RedOx reaction may start.
That's one of the things that might play a role.
I'm also thinking about the use of brass in the nut and zink in the bridge, which also could contribute to this RedOx reaction.
Ginger |
Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 6:56 pm: | |
Oh yeah, keeping your guitar in a case accellerates the process. It is better to hang it on the wall or put it in a Quick Lock stand or a good imitation.
Oh, and be careful with PLASTIC coatings of stands: they can damage the finish too!
Ginger |
Talajuha
Username: Talajuha
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 7:20 pm: | |
Acetone is not an acid. It is a hydrocarbon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone
It is not likely that it affects both plastic and metal (plastic, yes) nor works as electrolyte bridge. Plastic may contain chlorine and fluoride compounds and emit them. Then there is the combination of the guitar (and its parts) and the case (plastic, metal, wood, glue etc?), in which may be many possibilities for the causes of damages of different materials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion
Is Hoshino aware of this problem, so they can avoid it?
Juha |
Yogi
Username: Yogi
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 7:31 pm: | |
The gassing effect is caused by the Tortoise (plastic) material itself. I once had a Ibanez F-360 BK Acoustic that had a Trussrod Cover that were made of that stuff only and after a few weeks in the case the strings above the TRC started to rust and even the Tuners were affected.
Juergen |
Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 8:11 pm: | |
Actually it's a pity, because is the most beautiful pickguard material. I put a bound one on my AS120, but I don't keep it in the case anymore.
Ginger |
Mattfrox
Username: Mattfrox
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:01 pm: | |
Zinc-brass may form a anode-cathode path to transfer electrons (redox reaction). This is only if strings are on to conduct. Could the gassing be HF (hydrofluoric acid)? This stuff is extremely volatile and i have seen it rust stainless...yes it can rust stainless. I cannot see too many other substances doing that amount of damage. I am a masters stundent in Geology so i have quite a bit of chemistry background. One needs to find out what or how this stuff is made. There are different substances that can scavenge nasty gases. If we figure out the gas you could combat the gas with another substance that you could put in your git case. |
Talajuha
Username: Talajuha
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 6:40 am: | |
After web search the problem looks like this:
Tortoise shell imitation used for picguards is layered cellulose acetat and/or cellulose nitrate (celluloid).
Cellulose acetat produces acetic acid with moisture; can be harmful to metals and organic materials.
Cellulose nitrate (celluloid) produces nitric acid with moisture; harmful to textiles and metals.
More e.g. http://www.uri.edu/hss/tmd/20th%20Centry%20Plastic s.pdf
Juha |
Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 5:28 pm: | |
Beautiful examples of what can happen.
Keeping a guitar in a case has a negative effect, because the gas gets more and more concentrated in it. I think it's wise to give the instrument room to breathe.
But that way you'll need twice the space.
Ginger |
Jimmys
Username: Jimmys
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 6:59 am: | |
Dave,
Do you live in a humid climate? I have seen the gold hardware on Artists become corroded and produce the green stuff, but I am pretty certain that this has only occurred in a humid climate (i.e. North East US and Queensland in Australia). I live in a really dry place now and keep my guitars in cases. I don't have any with pickguards thankfully but the gold hardware does not corrode here at all - mind you, even cars don't rust much here either. I am fairly confident in saying that the climate you live in could have a fair bit to do with the damage as well, seeing as you are not gigging the guitar in sweaty pubs.
James |
Harry
Username: Harry
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 9:23 am: | |
Hi all!
I have this problem too, with my Ibanez Les Paul Junior and the Ibanez Ripper Bass copies. The pickguard material of both is celluloid too and even when hanging on the wall (humidity of the room around 40%) these pick guards start to -sort of- "sweat". When this "sweat" dries is builds a powder-like white layer on the guard. If you touch it with your finger tip and then taste it with the tip of your tongue it bites like hell! Itīs pure acid!
I hate to replace original parts, but Iīm thinking of doing so just to avoid that the acid damps "eat" the entire hardware or damage the guitar otherwise.
Isnīt there a possibility to kind of "seal" the celluloid or give it some kind of chemical treatment to stop this "sweating"?
Kind greetz,
Harry |
Strings
Username: Strings
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 10:07 am: | |
Dave, on another note...STOP BITING YOUR NAILS! ;
Awesome post, thanks...I'm sure you sick of this thread already, but if possible, please post a tighter, body-only shot so we can see the replacement covers in context...something tells me they look pretty slick! ,,,like dechroming an old Merc.
Best Strings |