Who is a mid-70s Destroyer Expert?

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Author Message   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 2:03 pm:    Is there a mid-70s Destroyer expert (self-proclaimed or otherwise) on this list that could answer a few questions for me, please? Thanks.   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:00 pm:    no expert. but i'll give it a go. what's up?   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 1:02 am:    Calling Laaz... The Bear   Cleversj Username: Cleversj Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 1:58 am:    Don't know who the expert is but I am seriously looking for a decent one. I am beginning to believe that the last two Destroyers were schill. If you look closely at the bidders, you will see what I mean.   Harry Username: Harry Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 6:28 am:    I might have to say something here, so what are the questions? Harry   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 8:35 am:    Cleversj - actually, *I* was the losing bidder on the last one that went for $2775 and I'm still kicking myself for not going higher. I keep the same username across all forums and accounts so it's easy to verify: peterdryan   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 8:43 am:    Thank you, Harry. I'm going to come at this obliquely since I'm new here. I don't want to puncture any sacred beliefs and rile anyone up. I'm trying to acquire a mid-70s Korina Destroyer and I've seen several 1975s posted on various web sites. So, to lead into this softly, what are your (or anyone's) thoughts on the 1975 Ibanez Korina Destroyer vs. the 76 or 77? Just briefly and in general. Let me emphasize "1975", "Korina", and "briefly". I'm not trying to be secretive but my next question depends on the answer to this question. Thanks, - Pete   Harry Username: Harry Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 9:52 am:    Okay Pete: I only can judge my 1977 Destroyer since I have no experience with destroyers from any other year. My '77 is a fantastic guitar! It really barks and is a dream to play! Mind you: these guitars are not made of korina! They have ash bodies finished in a yellowisch colored clear laquer in order to make it look like korina. There are doubts about the rumour whether the first badge (1975) was made of real korina or not. Brief enough? Kind greetz, Harry   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 11:24 am:    Great, Harry. Thanks. That's pretty much everything I would have said had anyone asked me the same question. Until recently.... As I said, I'm trying to get my hands on a Korina Destroyer again. So, I've been doing a lot of research and the things I'm seeing just don't add up. Something is wrong, someplace, and I think it's my interpretation of certain things. OK, here goes: My claim is that there is *no* such thing as a 1975 Ibanez Korina Destroyer. 1976? Yes. 1977? Yes. 1975? No way. Here's why I make this seemingly ridiculous claim. In every photo I've ever seen of a "1975" Korina Destroyer, they always have Super 70s pickups. Every last one. Which is what my Desotryer had back in the late 70s when I previously owned one. The Super 70s weren't introduced until the East Coast NAMM show in April of 1976. So, either everyone that has a 1975 has upgraded their pickups or the year is wrong. In "Ibanez: The Untold Story", page 73, the author states, "In 1975, Ibanez introduced a mahogany set-neck version of the Explorer at the Summer NAMM Show in Chicago. At the show, Gruhn approached Roy Miyahara and informed him that the copies weren't accurate, most visibly the pointier headstock on the Ibanez version. He later sent Miyahara an original photo of a Gibson Explorer to better illustrate where Ibanez went astray." OK, so no "Korina" models as of 1975. On page 72 of the same book, the author states, "At the East Coast NAMM show in April of 1976, Ibanez added extra pressure when it introduced its Golden Oldies series, which included Flying V, Explorer, and Moderne copies." The "Golden" reference is, of course, to the Korina colored laquer used for the finish. I think where the mistake is coming from is that there are a few web sites that make statements that go something like: "In 1976, Ibanez began stamping serial numbers into their guitars." a) that's not true, and; b) it's misleading The "not true" part is that Ibanez actaully began using serial numbers in September of 1975. The misleading part is the implication that Ibanez began using serial numbers on *all* equipment at that point in time. So, I am *assuming*, that people think their non-serial number 1976 Destroyer is actually a 1975 simply because it doesn't have a serial number (claims, I, myself have erroneously made as well). In re-evaluating the serial number statement, my new take on it is that the Korina Destroyer began the 1976 production run without serial numbers but gained them partway through the 1976 season. Does anyone know of a reliable registry where we can determine the earliest known *Korina* Destroyer serial number? Thoughts? Comments? Am I totally insane? Thanks, - Pete   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 12:09 pm:    uh, well. i had a flyer about the destroyer and rocket roll sr. in early '76 that had the destroyer with a "jackson" like headstock. so that is probably the one gruhn mentioned. (i met him last sunday, nice guy.) the '75 namm was probably preview of the coming year. like cars. so someone could have bought a destroyer at the show in '75, when it was actually a forthcomig '76 production model. or i'm dead wrong.   Harry Username: Harry Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 1:57 pm:    Hi Pete In spite of your research, you are clearly wrong on one point (best proof of how we still keep learning, no matter how deep we dig into Ibanezīstory and how sure we think to be of the answers). You say that Ibanez guitars had serial numbers from September 75 on. Thatīs not true. Iīve seen several Ibanez guitars with the serial number H 75XXXX, so that means August 1975. As for the rest, I canīt agree nor disagree with your story. Fact is that Iīve seen a few (!) Korina Destroyers without serial numbers. Like Tbplayer said: these might have been the very first made in 1975 to be presented at shows prior to the official launch in 1976. And remeber: if a guitar appears for the first time in an early 76 catalogue it must have been built way before, because pictures for the catalogue had to be taken, the layout of the catalogue had to be made, the catalogue had to be printed.....so the first one MUST have been made in 1975. Question: if they were made in the second half of 1975, why didnīt they get serial numbers? Why should every Ibanez model have serial numbers, except for the Destroyers? That reminds me.....Iīve seen no-serial number Moderns with the open book headstock too...Hmmmm Same story here?? Could anybody have guessed way back 30 years ago that some fanatic Ibanez researches would dig so deep in the history of what at that time was called "Jap Crap" guitars??? Harry   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 2:14 pm:    Let me be anally clear here. I'm *not* saying "there's no such thing as a 1975 Destroyer". What I am saying is "there's no such thing as a 1975 *Korina* Destroyer". If what I've read is true (agreed, that's an assumption on my part) and the so-called Golden Oldies were not introduced until April 1976, well, we *know* there are 76 Korina Destroyers from serial numbers so I'd have to say the April 1976 NAMM show was for products being released in 1976 (at least as far as Ibanez goes). Another reason I say that is if you go on eBay and search for Destroyer magazine ads, you'll find one from 1976 advertising the three Golden Oldies for sale. It will show the Korina versions of the Destroyer, Rocket Roll Sr, and Futura (Moderne) together.   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 2:26 pm:    Harry - Good call on the serial numbers. This is my bad interpretation. Apologies, all. In the book "Ibanez: The Untold Story", on page 70 the author states, "As sales increased, it became necessary to begin using serial numbers to verify warranty claims. The first guitars to employ serial numbers appeared in September of 1975." My initial (incorrect) interpretation of that was the serial numbers were first put on guitars made in September 1975. Obviously, that's wrong in light of what Harry said so I must reinterpret that passage to mean "the first shipment of Ibanez guitars having serial numbers hit the stores in Septmeber of 1975" Which doesn't tell us what month's production run was the first to have serial numbers. - Pete   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 2:41 pm:    Harry - More guesswork... I agree that if a guitar is in a 1976 catalog it must have physically existed prior to publication (at least, back in 1976 it had to. Gotta love computer graphics). All that means, though, is that *one* prototype existed for the photo shoot. It doesn't (necessarily) mean that the model was part of a production run yet. The Rocket Roll Sr is the joker in this deck. The RR existed prior to the introduction of both the Destroyer and the Futura (Moderne). So, I wouldn't be surprised if the Korina version of the RR came out of the shoot with serial numbers. The Destroyer prototype was introduced at the 75 NAMM and I can't find any references to the Futura (Moderne) prior to its introduction as part of the Golden Oldies roll-out in 1976. For Ibanez, these were both brand new lines so that may account for why earlier models did not have serial numbers. I don't really know...yet. Please keep poking holes in my theories. It'll help me find the right answers. Thanks, all. I really do appreciate the feedback. - Pete   Lespaul Username: Lespaul Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 5:24 pm:    Super70's came out in 1974 as far as I know. I have plenty pre-serial Les Paul models with original (untouched solderjoints) Super70's. I have a couple of 1975 serialnumbered Les Paul models as well so why wouldn't there be any destroyers with Super70? P@ul   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 6:43 pm:    Lespaul - All I'm going by is what is in the book "Ibanez: The Untold Story". I don't know whether the information contained in this book is true, false, or otherwise but it's the most authoritative information I've found (so far) that has actually made it into print. Which, of course, doesn't mean squat. On page 72 of "the book", it states: "One other significant development in 1976 was the introduction of the new Super 70 humbucker." The book doesn't mention anything about the 1975 Les Paul clones. Other models, yes, but not the LPs. It does, however, talk about the 1974 Les Paul clones (page 62) stating the set-neck copies came with "square-pole, Hi-Power humbuckers" and that the 2391 model came with "Clear-Power humbuckers". Thanks. - Pete   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 7:03 pm:    Pete: I know that when the book came out, there were discussions regarding several inaccuracies. Since much of the book was based on what people remembered, or thought they remembered, I'm sure there are a bunch of inaccurate statements. Unfortunately, these inaccuracies can easily become 'facts'. btw...I'm not putting you down. Regarding vintage Ibanez guitars, I've come to logical conclusions which I'm convinced are true, however, I'm not sure I'll ever know if they really are correct. mk   Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 7:46 pm:    Peter, You quote the "untold story" as if it were "THE BOOK" unfortunately it is FULL of inaccuracies and misquotes. Vintage Ibanez is NOT an exact science and , manytimes the unusual is the norm. For example.. Ibanez NEVER made a set neck Deluxe 59er.......Yet I have one ! Ibanez NEVER made a "Block Inlay" Artist.....Yet I have one ! I own a Destroyer (Korina) pre serialnumber w/Super 70's I own a Futura (Korina) Pre Serial number w Super 70's You will make yourself nutz trying to figure it all out..... Just keep in mind that "The Book" has MANY inaccurate entries and the most accurate information on Vintage Ibanez will come from this forum and from H&H's forum for the early stuff   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 8:51 pm:    Also keep in mind the Untold Story is also about Hoshino USA and not the rest of the worlds Ibanez'   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 8:54 pm:    OK...I'm halfway to nuts. How in the world do I authenticate anything? These guitars are 30+ years old. If someone modified them 28 years ago, I'm sure that 28 year old wear, tear, and corrosion looks exactly like 30 year old wear, tear, and corrosion. Take the current 1976 Destroyer on eBay, for example. It's listed as a 1976 yet it doesn't have a serial number. It has Flying Finger pickups, not Super 70s. Who knows, maybe someone at the factory slapped on a set of FF because the hopper was out of S70s at the time. It's possible albeit not probable. How can any of us *really* tell if this thing has been modified? Are there any sort of definitve reference materials available that are above reproach? Thanks, all. - Pete   Johns Username: Johns Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 9:03 pm:    Peter: Everybody is making very good points. Your quest is admirable. Many of us have been down the same road as you -- hoping to sort things out, once and for all. However, all too often Ibanez/Hoshino has proven to be too slippery to lock down with absolute statements.   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 9:17 pm:    IbanezFreak1960 - Oh, good grief! My ego-centric American upbringing didn't even consider that. My feeble mind just *assumed* we were all talking about guitars shipped to and released in the USA. Would it be too much to hope for that a 1976 Whatever shipped to the US would be identical to a 1976 Whatever shipped to the UK or France? Are there differences between the same model when their destinations are different countries? I'm getting a headache... - Pete   Cleversj Username: Cleversj Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 10:17 pm:    Peter, And imagine that, you lost the bid. The last three have been the same. I know when you started. Next time, why don't we wait until the last minute? I am hoping for a private sale for a really nice one. I have been looking for over a year. Eventually, it will happen.   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 10:36 pm:    Yeah, I know. It was my own fault. I just didn't think anyone was crazier than I am and be willing to go that high. Live and learn.   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 10:41 pm:    This is the biggest reason why I've lost interest in "collecting". Ya'll nit pick things 'til all the fun is gone. And yet, with all this jabberin', nobody bothered to mention that Ibanez probably only made a couple Korina bodied guitars. The production "Korina Finish" is stained Ash. Best of luck to ya, Peterdryan. The Bear   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 10:42 pm:    Pete hunt around the site for a while and you will find the answers to your questions grasshopper! There can and are differences between USA and other destinations. The most common nowadays are finishes.   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 8:28 am:    Dave_g - I missed this the first time through: What is "H&H's Forum"? I Googled it and got a lot of neat travel tips for Alaska and BBQ but nothing on guitars. Thanks, - Pete   Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 8:54 am:    I was refering to Harry and Hasy's site...specializes in the early Ibanez years 1960's http://www.ibanez-vintage-page.de/   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:19 am:    Ya'll nit pick things 'til all the fun is gone. Is that a new style of playing Steve? nit pickin' as opposed to finger pickin'   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 6:54 pm:    Better 'n nose pickin'!   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 5:33 pm:    This asks for some statistics: http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/10388.html So nose pickin' is in fact a very popular activity. But there seems to be a taboo on it, like on several other activities that we in fact like a lot. In fact we're a bunch of hypocrites. As for you, Steve, at the moment you're focussed on your primary needs, which are NOT higher artistic needs. So make sure you don't have to worry about these primary needs any more and the fun will return. I know being "in between jobs" can make a man bitter, but you have to take control. A shave and a haircut, some nice suits and apply for those jobs you're good at. For instance, wouldn't you be an excellent representative for Hoshino or any other electric guitar company in the USA? You have the knowledge... I'd say: "Sell it!" Oh, and eh Bear... about your collection... don't sell all of the honey before you forget the taste of it! Take enough Vitamin B6 and B12 (organ meat or B complex tablets) and make sure you get enough SUN LIGHT. Walk (you don't have to jog) or ride the bicycle, so that you are in good shape, both physically and mentally before each application. A tall guy like you in a suit should make quite an impression. Good luck, Ginger   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 11:20 am:    Ginger, mind yer own business. The Bear   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:20 pm:    lol   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 3:01 pm:    http://www.guynews.tv/2007/03/bogey-man-cometh.htm l

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