1978 Iceman Hardware Question

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Author Message   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 11:47 am:    I have what I have been told is an IC400 from 1978 that I have a question about. Everything I have seen and heard about the IC400 says it should have gold hardware. Mine has silver. Did they make them with silver as well as gold hardware? This has been a wild trip the last few days after I got the bug to find out what was under my bed for the last 20 or so years. If indeed my guitar is an IC400 I understand there were only 117 made for 1978 and just over 50 for 1979. This guitar has almost no hours of play on it because the neck has had issues from 1980 until 2003 when I finally was able to get it repaired. Any input on this fine guitar would be appreciated. IC78 iceman http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/mikemerritt /DSC00755.jpg   Davehowardcustom Username: Davehowardcustom Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:18 pm:    Hey Buddy, I see you migrated over here, ha ha. Yeah I noticed that about yours and I've been digging into it but can't find anything definate myself yet. There are guys here that IF ANYBODY can find out, they will. The one thing I've figured out about Ibanez is that you can NEVER say "they only made them like this," or "They only came with that." It becomes more & more evident every day that for some reason (changes in barometric pressure maybe) the guys at Ibanez threw out "Oddballs" all the time. maybe to make guys like us scratch our heads 30 years later. I guess it may be possible that a dealer ordered it that way from the factory, or swapped out the hardware when it came in. (That would be my first guess). Some people are predjudice, when it comes to gold vs chrome vs black. I worked at a dealership in the 80's when black hardware became a big fad. they made me pull every piece of black off new guitars & replace it with either gold or chrome. They just thought that "Black Painted Chintsy arssed hardware looked cheap." You might wanna post this also in a couple other threads, and see if Captain Ibanez or Jim Donahue can give you an answer. Face it, your guitar is an oddball.... it's a freak.... it's not worth crap.... Maybe you should just give it to me and remember "who's your buddy." Seriously, beautiful ax. You should hug your big brother for passing it on to you! let me know when you wanna do a "Dixie Jam." I'll break out the Destroyer & we can have a "Pointy Guiar Symposium." DHC   Talajuha Username: Talajuha Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:25 pm:    Ic, your link doesn't work 1978 Iceman pics and specs http://www.ibanez.ru/info/catalog/1978/22.jpg http://www.ibanez.ru/info/catalog/1978/23.jpg http://www.ibanez.ru/info/catalog/1978/24.jpg Juha   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:59 pm:    The link at the very bottom of the first post works. Dave, I should have known you would not be far from a group of Ibanez junkies. It seems that this may be yet another mystery in the Ibanez world. I suppose I am glad the hardware is silver because all of the gold I have seen on the net looked pretty bad. IC78   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 1:53 pm:    http://www.noahjames.com/vintagepage/iceman.html This page may shed a little light on the IC400 hardware issue. It looks like the pre 1980 may have come with silver and the 1981-82 II may have come with gold. This is the first reference I have seen to an IC400 with silver hardware. What set me looking for the answer to this is all of the material I have seen up to now showed the IC400's to have gold hardware and pearliod tuners. Mine does have pearloid tuners. Now, IC78   Davehowardcustom Username: Davehowardcustom Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 5:54 pm:    Hmmmmmmm, Something new's been added. Mike, click on 3rd link of Talajuha's posting. Could yours be an IC200, with the tuners changed? Jeaz, this company teaches me new twists & turns every day.   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 7:32 pm:    Hey Dave, I was thinking along those lines until today. Check the IC400 at the Noah James site posted above. Its way down the page. It clearly shows an IC400 with silver from 78-79. That page shows the gold showing up in "80 with the IC400II. I just doubt the tuners were changed on this guitar because we had it within the first year to 18 months of it being made. Also, have another good look at the pic of mine. I just can't see it being a Brown Sunburst. I wish there was some way to ID these guitars as in an actual model # on it. Thanks   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 8:17 pm:    Hey IC78, The IC200 had less elaborate binding than the IC400. How many plys of binding are on your guitar? Also the IC200 did not have the sustain block under the bridge wheras the IC400 did. What's under your bridge? An inlaid metal block or nothing, just the bridge studs going straight into the body timber? Cheers, Mark   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 8:59 pm:    It appears to be 6 layers of binding, 3 white and 3 black. There is not a sustain block that I can see. There appears to be some sort of hardware sunk into the body to receive the adjusting posts that hold the bridge. If the block is supposed to be visible under the bridge it is not there. This seems to be more of what I'm running into on this guitar. One thing looks like IC200-300 and another like IC400. It looks like the binding is 400 but there is no sustain block. We'll keep at it until we know. Thanks, Mike   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 9:10 pm:    Hi Mike, The sustain block should well and truly be visible. It would be a chrome oblong lying in the body right under the bridge. The bridge posts would attach to it. The hardware "sunk into the body" that you describe, is that just two round bushes that the bridge posts thread into? If the oblong block is not there, then you most likely have an IC200. I think the binding on IC400s was always 7 ply, whereas the IC200 was supposed to be 3 ply. However, I believe there are some IC200s out there with 7 ply as well. Cheers, Mark   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 9:21 pm:    Hi Mark, Yeah, 2 bushings or whatever on the bridge posts. OK, point taken on the sustain block but what about the fact that it has the pearloid tuners? Also, I really don't think this one would qualify as a Brown Sunburst. It figures the ply on this one would fall in the middle of the known layers with 6 showing. Thanks for your time on this, Mike   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 12:48 am:    Hi Mike, The innermost ply - what colour is it? Can you post any photos? Mark   Johns Username: Johns Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 9:18 am:    IC78: The IC400 had a maple top on mahogany body and the IC200 was all mahogany. What's your's? There's something distinctive about your tailpiece. It's very thin and looks like it's just the top portion of a 2-piece Gibraltar cloud rather than the one-piece tail that is shown in the '78 catalog. Have you seen the 1977 Iceman Musician Performer catalog? It does not show an IC400 model. Only goes up to the IC200 model. Look how similar it is to your's, including the thin tailpiece. But it was still a mahogany only construction.   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 10:43 am:    Munch...the ply on the binding starts with white on the outside to black on the inner most layer. There are six total. Johns...I don't know that I would know a maple from a mahogany top unless most mahogany is somewhat plain like the back of most guitars. The top of mine appears to be maple and is two piece joined in the center. I have had no luck posting pics in my posts here but here is another pic link to Photobucket that is a closer shot. Thanks, Mike   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 10:43 am:    Munch...the ply on the binding starts with white on the outside to black on the inner most layer. There are six total. Johns...I don't know that I would know a maple from a mahogany top unless most mahogany is somewhat plain like the back of most guitars. The top of mine appears to be maple and is two piece joined in the center. I have had no luck posting pics in my posts here but here is another pic link to Photobucket that is a closer shot. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/mikemerritt /iceclose.jpg Thanks, Mike   Skybone Username: Skybone Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:38 am:    "Also the IC200 did not have the sustain block under the bridge wheras the IC400 did" The IC200 DID have the sustain block, the '78 model definitely had one. Mine has one. I've seen pics of some late 70's "anomaly" IC400's that came with chrome hardware on this very forum, but they're a bit of a rarity. The majority of them DID come with gold hardware. The multi lined binding and the pearl button tuners all say IC400. From Ic78's pics, the top does look as though it is maple, it's too light to be anything else. When I initially saw the pics of the Iceman, I thought it was an IC200, but all the details of the guitar don't support this. It is most definitely an IC400. Scan from a '78 US Catalogue showing the IC400: http://www.ibanezrules.com/catalogs/us/1978/p23.jp g Scan of '78 US Catalogue showing IC100/IC200: http://www.ibanezrules.com/catalogs/us/1978/p24.jp g   Johns Username: Johns Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 12:24 pm:    Skybone: I'm not sure how accurate photos are, especially of bursts. So, I can't say that "it's too light to be anything else." The major difference between an IC400 and IC200 is the maple top. Once that's established then, I agree that it's an early '78 (by the way what's the serial number?) with some transition features like chrome hardware and that "thin" Quik-change tailpiece. The transition would explain the lack of a sustain block and addition of Pearloid tuners.   Johns Username: Johns Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 12:28 pm:    Ic78: Can you get some real closeups, in focus showing the grain pattern of the top? Especially any variations in the patterns. Also, what's the serial number? Just to confirm how early in '78 this was made.   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 1:16 pm:    I would have to take some closer pics and it would probably be Thursday before I could post them. Going on memory the serial is C788122. If thats not correct I will post it with the new pics. I am almost sure its a maple top though a fairly plain one with most of the grain just running straight. Nothing brown about this guitar. mike   Skybone Username: Skybone Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 4:50 pm:    John, the last pic of the guitar body (\newurl {http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/mikemerritt /iceclose.jpg}), the grain pattern is all wrong for it to be mahogany, which if my IC200 and 2619 are anything to go by, was a very tight, close grain in '78 & '79. I still think it's a "transition special" IC400. If you look at the grain pattern in the scan you posted, and the grain pattern of my IC200 (http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/discus/messages/21 /1002438.html?1192869458) and compare the two, mike Ic78's is a lot different. Ic78/Mike: next time you change the strings on this baby, can you remove either (or both) of the pickups and get a pic inside the pocket. You should be able to see the joint between the mahogany back & maple cap.   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 12:36 pm:    Most mahogany I have seen is tight grained with little character. The link below shows my guitar top pretty much for what it is. You can see the obvious joint in the middle of what has got to be a maple top though its somewhat plain. Also, the thick 6 layer binding is easily seen. Just waiting for the final say on this guitar. Is it a 400 or not? That is the question. Mike http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/mikemerritt /icecloseII.jpg   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 1:33 pm:    Also, the correct serial number is C788126. Mike   Davehowardcustom Username: Davehowardcustom Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 2:17 pm:    Mike, I'd say that's definately a maple top. Looks like a 400 to me, with chrome hardware. Cool Dang Fiddle, Friend!   Skybone Username: Skybone Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 3:07 pm:    Mike, Can you take some pics of the back of the guitar as well? That should be   Flatbag Username: Flatbag Registered: 9-2004 Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 10:14 pm:    Yep, that's definitely maple. Looks like a sustain block in that last pic too. Take a pic of the back, showing the neck joint, it should have a smooth heel. If it does, the only weird thing is the hardware, which could easily have been changed by a former owner or something - incidentally, are the pearloid tuners gold or chrome? Re the 6 or 7 ply binding, early models had 6 ply (check the top right image in the first catalogue pic in Talahuja's post of Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:25 pm), whereas later models had 7 ply (mine is a K78 serial with 7 ply).   Skybone Username: Skybone Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 5:38 am:    Well spotted Flatbag! Didn't notice the sustain block in that last pic.   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 10:44 am:    OK folks, I have a correction to this thread. This guitar indeed does have a sustain block. I'm embarrassed to say why I said it didn't. Lets just say I wasn't looking at it right. Here are some pics of the back and shot clearly showing the sustain block. The tuners are chrome. If you look way down the page at the Noah James site at the link in my 5th post you will see IC400's with NO reference to any being made with gold. Go figure. They mention an IC250 and an IC400II with gold but no regular 400. The more I look at this guitar I am simply amazed at the condition this guitar is in. Though tragic to have been locked in a case for the last 25 or so years it sure has protected it from normal wear and tear. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/mikemerritt /DSC00818.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/mikemerritt /DSC00817.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/mikemerritt /DSC00816.jpg I can now feel confident that I have an IC400. Thanks to Dave Howard (DHC music, DaveHowardCustom Guitars)for all of his help and input...he nailed this guitar for what it was the second he saw it a couple of weeks ago. mike   Davehowardcustom Username: Davehowardcustom Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 11:50 am:    Dang Mikie, The more pics I see of this axe the more I envy you! man, that there fiddle is better than Viagra! I've got a wife, 3 daughters & a Golden Retriever I'll give ya for it, Ha Ha (Just kidding, Honey). Congrats on a sweet guitar & glad I could help. DHC   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 12:24 pm:    Hey Dave, Had one guy offer me his 1989 pickup for the guitar. Said he would drive in, make the trade and leave walkin' with the axe on his back. Makes a cool picture in your mind doesn't it? Mike   Flatbag Username: Flatbag Registered: 9-2004 Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 7:36 pm:    The Noah James link is wrong, IC400s were definitely gold hardware - the Ibanez catalogue indicates it, and your is the first I've seen with all chrome. But the latest set of pics do prove that yours is definitely an IC400, the smooth heel neck joint was exclusive to that model. Well done!   Ic78 Username: Ic78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 8:53 pm:    Flatbag, I agree on the gold hardware thing. The fact that mine has chrome is one of the things that threw us all off on the ID of this guitar. Every reference except the Noah James site shows 400's to have gold. As I mentioned before, I really doubt the hardware has been changed but I suppose you never really know. mike   Skybone Username: Skybone Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 9:37 am:    "Transition Special" IC400.

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