ST-50 with a Floyd Rose

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Author Message   Mongo Username: Mongo Registered: 12-2007 Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 3:21 pm:    I know this will make some cringe, but I came a cross a 'project' ST-50 that has me considering adding a Floyd Rose to it. The previous owner(s) really abused this guitar. The V2's are gone the bridge, tail piece and tuners are thoroughly trashed. They even drilled a hole right next to the input jack for a tiny cheap secondary volume pot. Not to mention the dings and buckle marks. My goal is to get the playability of the Floyd and resurrect the tone of the Studio. I picked up a beautiful gold Floyd that should compliment the ST-50's wood. I'm considering designing a rust/tortoise shell pick guard to hide their misguided drilling. I have a beautiful ST-100 that I bought new in 1979. It was my first guitar and has always been my favorite. It's played regularly and cherished. I really want to keep it at home, so this project is in the works. Has anyone tried to mount a Floyd on a Studio? I'm concerned that there may not be enough meat between the original bridge studs and the bridge pickup cavity to mount the Floyd. I'm also thinking that the pickup sockets may be too deep and interfere with the area needed for the rear spring cavity. Any insight would be appreciated. Mongo   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 6:29 pm:    IMO, you are making several mistakes. The ST50 is a long scale 24 fret guitar, with a Gibraltar I bridge (no sustain block) and a Quik Change II tailpiece. Now, the distance of the two studs of that tailpiece is the same as the distance of two Les Paul or ES-335 studs. The shape of the studs is also the same. So all you need to get a vibrato sound, is a Les Trem ($135.-) and a replacement bridge. When you start making a new Floyd routing you have a good chance to screw up. Those anchor base holes are exactly on the right place. So why would you create an intonation problem? Ginger   Mongo Username: Mongo Registered: 12-2007 Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 12:55 pm:    I found the Les Trem listed for $152 at Stewart MacDonald. I also saw a Stetsbar for $300+. With both systems I'd be dealing with friction at the nut and in the bridge and tailpiece. I don't want to be lubricating my nut with graphite, etc and always waiting for the next note to be out of tune. I get that headache enough with my Strat. This poor guitar was trashed and I'm not at all concerned about its restoration value. I'm hoping someone has crossed this bride and has some experience with the installation of a Floyd as a possibility. If there is room for it to be positioned properly, intonation, etc. should not be a problem. This guitar will be a player. The Floyd has always provided impeccable tuning, so it was my first choice for a vibrato. Plus it looks awesome and has excellent sustain characteristics.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 11:38 pm:    $135.- at Elderly (chrome) http://www.elderly.com/accessories/items/TP5425C.h tm Ginger   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:05 am:    I consider the nut and the tremolo to be two separate problems. If you want to avoid friction at the nut, you can solve it with solutions that are in fact separate from the bridge, such as: > a top lock; > a roller nut; > an LSR nut; > a brass nut; > a Graph Tech nut, which is self lubricating; I'm not sure about the results of the brass nut. I know the sustain will improve, but it takes a fine metal specialist to get those slots smooth. Our old sax player can make it work, but he used to make hardware for Egmond (he also designed the six head drill to drill six holes in the headstock). Anyway, he had this old Hofner with a trem, and some visitor tipped it over and it fell with the nut against the edge of the table. The nut was broken in two pieces. His first question was, if I could find such an old black and white nut, or if I could provide some bone to make a nut. I told him that the first was difficult, the second was less difficult to find (about 4 euros), but a lot more difficult to process than brass. He was surprised, because Egmond had never used brass nuts, but Suzuki did on the ES-335 model. So he made one of brass, it works perfect and with no friction. That was the cheapest option for him. For other people an imitation of a Graph Tech nut is the cheapest. I buy them from Boston MuPro (Bas v.d. Broek). Second cheapest option is original Graph Tech: about 18 euros. And then comes a top lock and the most expensive options are roller nuts/LSR nuts like on the Jeff Beck and the Strat Plus. Making a correct routing for a Floyd Rose is far too difficult if you have no experience, and there is a chance that you end up with a piece of junk. Ginger   Mongo Username: Mongo Registered: 12-2007 Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 10:15 am:    Ginger, I found all of the specs and templates for mounting the Floyd. I spent time last night meticulously evaluating whether it was feasible. It doesn't look like there is any way to mount it. The pivot studs need to be 25" from the nut and that is exactly where the bridge pickup hole is cut to. Bummer. I have a brand new gold Ibanez 'licensed' Floyd that is almost identical to my Floyd original on my Zion. I so wanted it on this guitar. I cleaned up the guitar as best as it could be. I spent over an hour just getting the fretboard back in shape. The frets are in excellent condition. The rosewood was covered with a 28 year old layer of crud. It looks like new now. I'm thinking that a set of Grover locking tuners may work. I've not yet verified the dimensions. I'm really trying to consider the Les Trem, but my initial impression is not too exciting. I've not seen one in person, so I'm just gong by pics. It would be the easiest and allow complete reversal to stock. I'll need to think on this a bit more. I'm still bummed about the Floyd. What I do know is that I want to go with a gold finish. It just looks awesome. Mongo   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 1:30 pm:    Reversal to stock can cost quite a lot of money too, because that would mean: - NiChrome Gibraltar I bridge ($60-155) - NiChrome Quik Change II ($55-85) - Two V2 pickups (about $80-140) - Set of original tuners (about $40-100) So we're talking at least $235.- parts. And you wrote that it was totally beat up. So, wouldn't it be better to use $235.- parts on minty wood? I've seen ST-50 guitars for less then $300.- on eBay. If I were you, I would install whatever nice sounding cheap humbuckers (from an Epiphone for $25.- each), and some Korean parts: a set of a tune-o-matic bridge and LP tailpiece for $20.- , a set of new Ping tuners for $20.- (or old Grovers, Schallers or Gotohs). And ready you are for $90.- I would not spend much more on it, because if you sell, it's worth less than the parts. If it were an Artist, your chances to get a decent price would have been better, but it isn't. I wonder what can be saved of the original parts, because if I read your comment on those, they must have been hit by a truck. How bad is it really? Ginger   Mongo Username: Mongo Registered: 12-2007 Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 5:43 pm:    How bad... hmmm.... It looks like it lived near the ocean salt spray. The finish on the NiChrome is deeply pitted, green and rusted. The tuners have almost no finish left and one has a cap missing, so the post/gear falls out when you take the string off. The bridge risers are rusted and the adjustment slot is broken off. I guess the thought of loosening the nut wasn't considered before the big screwdriver was grabbed... The body looks great (cleaned up now) from the front and back (disregarding the scratches and additional hole), but the edges are banged up pretty badly showing wood. It's still solid and should have great tone. They did relocate the back strap button to the back of the neck joint. The neck (fretboard) is in great shape, but the headstock and top edge have seen some hits. Kinda looks like an enthusiastic moment where a player decided to spin around, only to find he was too close to a cymbal... I didn't pay much for this knowing it was a project that would be gutted. My criteria was to get the fretboard of my ST-100, the warmer tone of an ST-50 and the vibrato of my Zion. I still think this is achievable and I expect to be under $400 when I'm done. Not a bad investment for a solid player. I'm wondering now if anyone has mounted a Kahler on a Studio? They have a model (2200 or 7200 Hybrid series) that is supposed to retrofit Tune-o-Matic Stop tailpiece style bridges. It looks like it might be a pretty simple adaptation with minimal surface routing. Thoughts?   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 9:23 pm:    A "warmer tone from an ST-50"? That's not what I am experiencing. Forget that idea. We've seen so many pickup operations on ST-50 Studios, that isn't going to work. I guess it's the combination of the laminated maple neck and the scale. They stay always at the treble side. I you want a warmer sound, you should try a shorter mahogany neck, or walnut. My '78 The Pauls (I've got two) sound much warmer. My ST-50 was in Frank's shop for 495 euros first. Then Henk bought it, brought it back, (he had hoped the pickups were real DiMarzios) then it was standing there for 400 euros, and Frank gave me 100 euros discount (I sold several guitars and basses through him). Anyway, I saw this on eBay. But I must warn you! This does NOT fit! http://cgi.ebay.com/Ibanez-Tune-O-Matic-Style-Brid ge-and-Tailpiece-Iceman_W0QQitemZ360003461340QQihZ 023QQcategoryZ41407QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZVi ewItem It just says it came from "an Iceman". Well what I see here is Korean stuff. I measured my bridge from anchor to anchor (centre to centre) and I measured 3.044" or 77.33 mm. So probably from a 1995 PS10, and NOT an LTD. Nice if you are restoring a Korean axe, which isn't the case as far as I know, unless you've other projects laying around... Stay away from that Kahler. What you could try is a Washburn "Wonderbar". You should type that in the ICW Search. I remember at least one of the guys describing how he used to install them by the dozen. And there are some Artist guitars among members, that were bought with such a piece and then probably restored back to stock. So perhaps they want to sell it. I believe that was on AM-255 guitars. But it is possible that they are still looking for the original trem and stick with the wonderbar now for the time being. Anyway, I would like to see some pics or colour scans of those parts. Can you get them off the guitar with some WD-40 perhaps? We have at least one guy on board with a lathe, who managed to make a brass copies of his anchors. Make some before pictures of the parts, then throw them in a jam jar with kerosene and let them in it for 24 hours, so that all oxidation comes loose. Disassemble the bridge and throw the whole stuff back into the jam jar for another 24 hours. Brush the individual bridge screws and saddles with a brass spark plug brush. Rinse them again in the kerosene and dry them. Rub the NiChrome with a cotton cloth (old worn underwear is good enough). Make after pictures. Then we will see what can be saved of the original parts. The saddles will probably be OK. They should be made of brass. Put the routing thing out of your head. That's where troubles start. Ginger   Mongo Username: Mongo Registered: 12-2007 Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 1:12 am:    Ginger, Right after I posted I went out to the garage with the bridge and tailpiece. I didn't think to take any before pics. I've spent several hours hand rubbing them with various grades of cleaner and polish. I even used a soft buffing wheel on a dremel. I was amazed at how well the tailpiece cleaned up. It almost looks new. The crusty oxidation was green and looked more like hard water lime buildup. I worked on it the most once I saw that the oxidation had not pitted through. The bridge, while shiny now, still has lots of deep pits and flaked off chrome. It looks ok from about 15 feet. It's hard to believe it was rusted and looked like it had barnacles on it. The brass saddles look like gold now. It should work fine. If a locking tremolo is not possible, then I'll just reassemble it and play it as is. The pups that it came with are a Bill Lawrence (L500) in the neck and a Dimarzio DP100 (Super Distortion) in the bridge. I didn't plug it in when it arrived because the strings were literally falling off. I thought I've read several places that the ST-50's didn't have the piercing high edge that the ST-100's can have. With the solid body, I was expecting it to be warmer. When I get it back together I'll see what it sounds like. I'll dial it in and get a tone I'll be happy with. I will be bummed to not have the option of a locking tremolo, that was very high on my 'want' list...   Agr Username: Agr Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 9:37 am:    "I thought I've read several places that the ST-50's didn't have the piercing high edge that the ST-100's can have." Mongo...this is accurate. I have 4 studios ranging from an ST50 to the ST300. The ST50 (and ST55) WITH V2s is very warm (some would say almost dark). The ST100 (as well as the ST300) is much brighter due to the woods being used. The main reason for the warmth of the ST50 is the mahogany body...much like a Gibson SG. In fact, in the treble position my ST50 sound very similar to my Gibby SG. Problem with ST50s is that they are tough to find all original and in good shape...they were very affordable so people really beat them up...   Mongo Username: Mongo Registered: 12-2007 Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:38 am:    Agr, I passed up several ST-50's on eBay over the last months. A couple were in excellent condition, going for $300+. A fair price for sure. I considered picking one up, and was willing to spend up to $400 (with case), but my goal was a 'project' guitar. I couldn't fathom messing with a clean/original 50 for my goal. I've been considering this for a looooong time, patiently waiting and watching. This one is perfect for what I want to accomplish, but it seems like I may not be able to get where I want to end up. I know I can get the guitar back in 'playable' condition with no more than deep cleaning and a setup, but that's not my objective. I have a beautiful ST-100 that I bought new in 79. It was my first guitar and I 'know' how much classic Ibanez's can be loved. It was my love for this guitar that motivated me to seek one out to pull from the grave 'so to speak' and give it a 'new' life. I'm no hacker & this should be a great guitar when I'm done. Not original, but definitely played often. The Floyd is definitely out due to the lack of wood for proper positioning. The Les-Trem, Stetsbar, Bigsby, etc. are not what I'm looking for since they all deal with friction points at the nut. The Kahler looks like it 'might' work since they specifically have a model designed to retrofit Tune-o-Matic Stop tailpiece style bridges. I'll need to do some measuring to verify its possibilities. Surely with the wealth of knowledge and experience here, someone has to have crossed this bridge over the last 20 years... Any insight would be appreciated.   Agr Username: Agr Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 3:51 pm:    Mongo, Good luck. I'm not a trem guy so I really can't shed any light on your efforts. Hope it works out...   Mongo Username: Mongo Registered: 12-2007 Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 5:11 pm:    Thanks, Hopefully some other folks will jump in this thread.

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