AR 500 tri-sounds Super 80 ('78-'80 m...

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Author Message   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 8:53 am:    Does the signal from the Super 80's sound super thin (almost unusable)when the tri sound switch for either PUP is in the up-most position AND the PUP selector is in a dedicated position for that pickup? Mine sound really (strangely) thin unless the PUP selector is in mixed (middle) mode and at least one of the PUP's tri-sound position is in the middle or down (humbucker) position - then it sounds phenomenal. Is this "up" tri-sound position simply used for "sweetening" when PUP selector is in mixed mode or is my wiring screwed up? Also, does anyone have access to a wiring diagram for this axe? And, would it be any different than the '80's model with the 58's and the fatter rear-end? Thanks!   Tubescorcher Username: Tubescorcher Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 9:39 am:    Yo Strings, Check this out and see if it helps answer your question. http://www.geocities.jp/dgb_studio/index_e.htm   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 12:42 pm:    Scorch! Thanks! Unfortunately I'm not a schematic geek but I do get from that site the confirmation that my new '79AR500 (yes, I'll show pics soon!) is wired with the tri-sounds set up for an out-of-phase mode instead of the parallel option. What it affords me is real rich glassy clean sound when used with the other pick up set to single or series (humbuck)and vise versa. The "super thin" low signal I mentioned earlier is a result of this wiring technique. Check out this website that I found...Great diagrams and explinations. http://www.1728.com/guitar.htm   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 12:47 pm:    A blurb fron this site: Another tone option for a guitarist is to put a pickup out of phase with another pickup, producing a thin "inside-out" squawky kind of sound. When 2 pickups are in phase, they work together and reinforce each other. When they are out of phase the 2 pickups are working against one another and the resulting sound is the "leftovers" from these cancellations. The closer the 2 pickups are, the greater the cancellations, the thinner the sound and the lesser the volume. Therefore, the neck and bridge pickups out of phase is the best choice for this type of sound.   Yogi Username: Yogi Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 2:02 pm:    That wiring is correct for a '79 AR-500 although according to the schematics I've seen so far and the guitars that I own the 'down' lever position usually should activate the 'Out-of-Phase'-sound. Since 1980 the AR-500 were equipped with Super58s and the Tri-Sound wiring was changed to Parallel/Single Coil/Humbucking A wiring diagram can be found at JD's site: 2619-wiring Juergen   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 3:06 pm:    Yogi! Nice overhead shot of Iran's Nuclear Facility - looks like they've added a few silos! I figure your new minty fresh absolutely beautiful AR3000 (yielding complete and utter jealousy on my end)would be the best reference for where Ibanez intended the series (humbucking) position to be. My three ARs are all down. What position is the series setting for that ugly axe of yours (see, uncontrolable jealousy again)?   Yogi Username: Yogi Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 5:34 pm:    Well, actually the AR-3000 wouldn't be the "historically correct" reference 'cause it was made in 1981 and therefore has the new wiring that works like this: up=Parallel Coils center=Single Coil down=Serial Coils (Humbucking Mode) After doing some research on original wiring diagrams and some of my guitars that were made during that time, I have to correct myself and say that there are some variations in both the wiring and the switch positions. I can't tell for sure if those variations happened accidentally or that those changes were made at a certain point of time but here they are: The wiring diagrams on JD's site and the wiring of my '78 Artist Custom 2700 are looking like the diagram at the link above. Here is a diagram I made some time ago that shows the actual wire colors. The switch positions of that wiring are: up=Serial Coils (Humbucking Mode) center=Single Coil down=Serial Coils (Out-of-Phase) Both my 2619 made in September 1979 and a MC-500 made in February 1980 have a variation: The wiring is the same as shown above but the switch itself is turned around which results in the switch positions like on your AR-500: up=Serial Coils (Out-of-Phase) center=Single Coil down=Serial Coils (Humbucking Mode) There is another variation I found on a '78 PF-300 and on a '79 MC-300: Again, the switch positions and modes are: up=Serial Coils (Out-of-Phase) center=Single Coil down=Serial Coils (Humbucking Mode) And the conclusion of the rant above is: Everything's OK with the wiring of your AR-500! Juergen   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 10:09 am:    Thanks Yogi! Either way, I like the series in the down position and it seems all single coil settings I've seen are in the center for these Artists. Now I wonder what parallel would sound like on the Super 80's...any idea?   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 3:41 pm:    Strings: If you select only the bridge pup and run it in the Out-of-Phase trisound setting (my ultimate Weir setting), what kind of impact does the EQ/pre-amp have? Does it significantly boost the volume? How noisy is it? btw...my '79 AR300/2619 is wired exactly like the first diagram above. mk   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 2:07 pm:    MK...I'll try it again and work the EQ and boost a bit more. But as I mentioned above, the best Weir sound I can produce is mixed with the other p-up when that other p-up is NOT in O-O-P. But for mine, the cancelling mentioned above is so great that there is just not much voicing to work with when operated solo for either p-up.   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 3:08 pm:    I've said it before, but I'll say it again. The bridge pup alone in O-O-P is the '78 Weir sound. Now, if I can only boost it without too much noise... I've tried mixing w/ the other pup, however, it alters the sound and to my ears, it's no longer THE sound I'm after. Let me know and then offer me your AR500... tnx, mk   Lespaul Username: Lespaul Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 3:29 am:    Guys, Please enlighten me. How can you have 1 pick up (no matter neck or bridge) O-O-P? I thought the sound was produced by the TWO pick ups being O-O-P to EACHOTHER. If you have only one pick up selected, what is it O-O-P with? IMHO it just has the winding direction reversed, nothing else, so there would be no electrical or sonical effect at all. Were do I go wrong? Paul   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:18 am:    On the 2619 and early AR300's and AR500's, the tri-sound switches has series/single/out-of-phase settings. The O-O-P setting connects the two coils of the SAME Super 80 pickup out-of-phase with each other. When the AR300 & AR500 were changed from Super 80 to Super 58 pickups, the O-O-P option was replaced with a parallel setting so you had a choice of series/single/parallel. Yes - on some guitars, the phase switch takes two single coils from separate pups and makes them O-O-P. Lots of Blazers have this option. For Ibanez tri-sounds, the switch works within the same pickup. Obviously, the pickup must be two-coil (humbucker). mk   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:41 am:    MK, If you are talking about my guitar (79 AR 500 w/EQ,) I don't know how you could know what settings would produce what ever sound YOU are looking for. The tones I'm talkin' are with the EQ on. It may be that when the EQ is out that they might sound similer...but I doubt anywhere near exactly. Pauly, I should hve been more clear. In the context of what I was talking about: 2 humbuckers = 4 pickups. OOP is done between the sets of coils within the p-up. The canceling effect is described at the link I pasted in above (and in the text I copied from it.)   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:01 am:    Strings: Yes, I'm talking about your '79 AR500. Turn off your EQ and use the bridge pup (only) in OOP. I would think you would get the same sound that I am getting on my 2619/AR300. It's very glassy, yet, very low volume. Assuming you now have 'the' sound, flip on the EQ. I want to know how it sounds with an EQ boost. Much louder?? Noisy?? How does it sound thru effects?? mk   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:05 am:    To beat on this point a bit further and from what I researched, OOP varies by many degrees between hardware and configurations.   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:30 am:    MK...please read E-V-E-R-Y W-O-R-D carefully. Well, since it is being planed, refretted, scaled and an entire new neck binding (which was the reason for its hospitalization in the first place)with proper tint, your going to have to wait a while for me to try again what I already know from playing it during the previous 6 months. And yes, splitting an cancelling can be very noisy depending on the electrical environment; so, in that context, of course the noise will go way up when the boost is invoked/cranked. I'm not sure why I need your first step. I guess it makes more sense to me to just flatten the EQ, neck p-up solo, OOP, up the boost...see if I like it...which I already know that I don't...mmmmmmmmmmmmkayyyyyyyyy MK? Seems like you would not buy an transitional AR 500 if I give it this report. Sounds like you HAVE to have it set your way or no way...which I thinks is ahhhhh...confusing...to be nice. Best ;O)   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 11:20 am:    Strings: You need to go back on the medicine you were taking when you broke your wrist I'm not sure where or if we disagree. Since I don't have the EQ, I'm just asking what it would sound like if I was able to boost and tailor the sound via the EQ. Yes - if I had a transitional AR500, I would know.... Yes, in theory, using the same setting (bridge/OOP) and starting with a flat EQ should be the same as what I have. My goal is to determine how Weir was able boost his signal and keep it clean. He's loud and has no noise. He doesn't always stand exactly in one position to minimize the noise. How was it done? We know his wiring wasn't stock, due to the on/off toggles and the 3rd pup, however, we are missing something else. What's the trick? mk   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 12:59 pm:    I'll try one more time...then it's gonna get physical ;O\. On my AR500: EQ off, tone flat, dedicated OOP in ANY combination = sh!t (with buzz in my house - ALL DUE TO ELECTRONIC ENVIRONMENT.) I truly believe it is supposed to be this way with humbuckers per my research. EQ on, flat and boost up = Louder, Buzzier Sh!t EQ on, tweeked and boost up = Louder, Buzzier EQ'd Sh!t Unless Bob W. told you himself that dedicated OOP with YOUR set up is how HE gets his sound - which would make no sense to me even if that did happen - then I don't know how another, different guitar can make yours sound 'better'. I think it would behoove you to start at the top of this thread and read EVERY detail. OOP sounding like crap in all settings on MY guitar was the reason for my query for this thread in the first place. Get it? Got it? Good! I wouldn't continue this thread if I didn't love ya MK. A Happy New Year MK et al.   Jeffm725 Username: Jeffm725 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 1:02 pm:    MK says: --My goal is to determine how Weir was able boost his signal and keep it clean.-- http://dozin.com/godzilla/amp.htm its called a godzilla power amp. :-) Find one of the 25 that exist (or better yet 2, one for me ;-) and there is your clean boost without involving the guitar electronics. What you hear is what you get only times 1 million! actually, mk since one of my vocations is playing the "weir" parts in a band, I have been folowing your weir tone quest from afar for well over a year because it interests me too, and I have learned much in your process. If you want my humble opinion (and I know you didnt ask for it :-), "that sound" you are looking for does not come from a single primary source such as a single guitar or pickup setting. It has to be a sum of its parts such as the power amp referenced above, the ibanez outboard gear as you are very familiar with (whether it be the UE400 or UE700 or whatever other Hasselberger concoctions were tried, also the IVP preamp, I am sure colors it. Everything does. Remember how many different cowboys weir had (I have personally counted no fewer than 6 different ones). Some had stock ibanez EQ's, some did not, some had custom EQ's, there were a myriad of pickup on/off selection options as well as the subsequent pickup wiring selections with the oop/series/parallel etc... there were single coils in the center on some, not on others, single coils in different locations. All those cowboys had differences in one manner or another ,and I would say between 76-82 weir tried them all, and you know what? His tone stays fairly consistent through that time period through all those different changes and factors. So instead of looking at a single selected bridge pickup run oop as THE SOUND (and it may very well be, not saying it isn't), I think that there are quite a few different methods of getting there. There is one thing I can gurantee just from watching a huge number of videos from that time period is that he definitely did not just leave any of those 6 plus cowboys run on a single bridge pickup oop 100% of the time. By the way IMHO you nail the tone pretty well with your semi-hollow artists! I am suprised you don't have a cowboy, If I had your collection, I would sell everyone of those guitars and buy the cowboy sitting in Germany that is just waiting for you. If that doesnt get you to "that sound" nothing will :-)   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 2:35 pm:    Strings: We agree: the O-O-P thinness and noise are an issue. We may disagree: I'm confident that the bridge-only O-O-P is THE sound. btw...if I position myself just exactly right (ie: in relation to my amp to eliminate typical single-coil noise), my bridge-only O-O-P sound is fantastic! I'm surprised you don't hear it! My quest continues... Jeff: yes & no. The information on Dozin's site is interesting, however, incomplete. I have replicated the exact rig (IVP, UE400, Furman, etc), using a Weir 2680 and it wasn't even close. The key missing ingredient is the single coil pickup(s). No where does Dozin's site refer to this key factor in his sound. When Weir changed from his ES-335 (1974) to his Ibanez (1975), he wanted a single-coil sound. Jeff Hasselberger did this for him. With the 2681 (75/76), he added the (sliding) single coil which eventually became stationary. Weir then moved to the 1st Cowboy (77/78) which had Super 80's that could be run single/OOP, 3rd single-coil pickup in the middle, and the EQ. His sound was very clean and thin (single-coil +/or out-of-phase). The sound I get with my 2619 nails this sound. Weir's sound changed in '79 due to many factors: different Cowboy guitar w/ different pickups (Dimarzio), different effects, etc. Regarding my AM50, it served me well, however, it sounded nothing like my 2619. Great guitar, however, it's been sold and shipped to the UK. We could go on & on and bore 99% of the ICW members. If you want, maybe we should continue on Gearheads... mk   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 3:37 pm:    MK, On your first point with me: No, I believe "thin-ness" is intentional. The noise is NOT native to the guitar (at least not on mine.) I've tested it in controlled environments - no noise. As I've overstated, you are the one who thinks humbuckers in OOP SHOULD sound great. When mixed, I get what I want; Weir, Andy Summers and etc. Perhaps on a strat-type, singles in OOP work great because of their spatial relationship (don't forget, you cannot have OOP with just one single coil on a strat-type cuz phasing relies on the mix of two - hmmm, sounds familiar.) There is virtually no spatial arrangement with humbuckers cuz they are side by side so it makes perfect sense that they sound like sh!t (as explained in the article linked above.) When used in OOP for one (or both) pick-ups - I think you would agree on the sound value if you had an opportunity to play mine. On your point 2 with me: Maybe you got lucky or have some unique wiring that helps yours. Mine needs a mixed non-OOP to form the color and regulate the densities and I would not change a thing in that regard cuz it sounds AMAZING in that capacity.   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 4:33 pm:    I think we agree that the thinness is because the coils are right next to each other resulting in extreme signal cancellation. I still contend it sounds great, at least on my axe. Having another similar guitar to A/B against would be real nice! Feel free to send yours over to me for a test drive when it's back from the shop... I'll try mixing with non-OOP on the neck pup to see what I come up with. For you, can that combo sound AMAZING without the EQ?? mk   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 5:00 pm:    Not AMAZING no. Cuz the EQ (not so much boost) plays a huge role. It sounds good without it though. Does this 2619 in Series (standard humbucker - tone wide open) sound the same as your 2622 without the EQ - it should based on your theory. I like the EQ/Boost out on both my 2622 and 79 AR500 a whole lot for many of the other roles (including modified PAF) that (those) axe puts out   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 6:52 pm:    Yes - in HB it kicks butt and no noise at all. mk   Fingersmcoy Username: Fingersmcoy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 7:33 pm:    Very little acknowledgement for 725s illuminating insite.The super ego has a very thick wall!Oh my where do we go from here ?   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 8:28 pm:    Regarding Jeff's post: - show me a picture of Weir playing an Ibanez with more than 1 single coil... - custom EQ's??? 1st I've heard of it, anywhere. I'm skeptical...I'd like to know more. - Godzilla amp - us mere mortals don't need something that powerful. Yes - it provided nice clean power for Giant's Stadium shows. - Dozin's rig - I already addressed that. I guarantee that with only humbuckers, you cannot replicated Weir's late '70's sound. - sound = sum of it's parts - of course, but it must include the key ingredients. Right now, I can reproduce THE sound with my 2619 on any amp without any effects. Having everything else (except Godzilla) with the wrong guitar did absolutely nothing! - Weir had the same sound through all of his Ibanez years: I strongly disagree. There were similarities, but, his sound definitely changed. I agree with Jeff regarding different Cowboys & pickups and probably the electronics. I'd love to know for sure how his original Cowboy was wired. I have the schematic for the reissue(is that the right term??) Cowboy, however, the reissue Cowboy is modeled electronically after Weir's 3rd(?) Cowboy, not the original fancy one with the Super 80's. In summary, my ear tells me what works and doesn't work. I've tried LOTS of things and only when I received my 2619 did I realize I had the key ingredient. Jeff: don't take this posting personally. In fact, let's get together again. I look forward to any ideas you have. Any chance you can come on down so we can jam??? Bring a bass player too! I'm available all weekend. I'm serious. Check out what I'm talking about, then post your findings. mk   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 10:54 pm:    Not sure what the duck Fingers is talkin'...but MK, you'd be hard pressed to rival Jeff725 on dope on the Dead.   Fingersmcoy Username: Fingersmcoy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 11:45 pm:    Quack quack !!   Strings Username: Strings Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 1:17 am:    MK, I do have one very difficult question for you then: Which month within the '76 to '83 Ibanez years do you wish to mimick Weirs' "sound".   Snowjays Username: Snowjays Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 3:01 am:    Mk, the boost on my 2700 EQ is significantly more than on my AR500 with super58's in the OOP phase you're looking for. Have you tried these on a Musician MC500 or even go to a Greco GO series which has the H-S-H configuration?   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 9:20 am:    Strings: for right now, '77/'78 - 1st generation Cowboy with little effects. Very clean sound. I think that's a good starting point. I think the later Ibanez years is more difficult to achieve because the effects play a larger role. Still love the sound though... SnowJays: thanks for the info. Btw, I don't think and AR500's w/ Super 58's had OOP. When Ibanez changed to Super 58's, they replaced the OOP trisound setting with parallel humbucking. Jeff: any insight is always appreciated! mk   Jeffm725 Username: Jeffm725 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 12:30 pm:    MK, I dont take it personally :-), and there is one point of confusion I want to clear up and that is I did not state that weir had more than one single coil in any single guitar. I said: "there were single coils in the center on some, not on others, single coils in different locations" while that isn't the most clear sentence (and I use that term loosely) that I ever wrote, what I was implying is what you yourself stated and that was the addition of the single coil in 76 and his ability to try it in different places in between the buckers as Hasselberger laid out for us right here on ICW. And yes there are tonal differences between 76,77,78 and 79 but the basic base pallet of tone is very consistent. I do understand that you are trying to hone in on a 78 sound. Do you have a specific month or show from that period that REALLY illustrates your tonal desire? Because there are definite differences between his April 78 and July 78 and then again November 78 tones, but again, the underlying base tone is similiar. If you listen to those July 78 shows from Red Rocks, Weir is VERY prominent in the mix and he must have just got a new rack unit from Hasselberger because I have never heard him use more chorus and flanger on his guitar EVER. listen to this jack straw and the cassidy: http://www.archive.org/details/gd78-07-07.sbd.jerugim.293.sbeok.shnf As far as custom eqs, I would say that not more than 1 of Weir's cowboys had a standard Ibanez EQ unit in it. Again, that is taken from reading in between the lines of Hasselbergers posts here as well as looking at the knob and switch configurations on the different cowboys. They were constantly under the soldering iron. I would say that the electronic consumer available Ibanez products (the pickups, the EQ) had very little presence in Weirs overall sound. Whereas the overall "setup" of the cowboys, The neck through construction, the oversized peghead, the pyramid strings had more to do with it and was why the tone stayed similiar (not the same) through all the different cowboy guitar changes. I mean even the consumer available Bob Weir professional 2681 was NOTHING like the 2681 Weir was playing not even close as far as electronics go, but it gets you in the ballpark becasue the guitar setup is the same. For my 2681 the only way I get close to the Weir sound of that period is with the Coil Tap switch that was installed after market on the bridge pickup and a set of Duncan Distortion pickups. Probably because splitting a coil gives me a single coil sound, which approximates the center single coil in Weirs guitars. I DO think that center single coil is definitely KEY. However admittedly because of the dynamics of my particular band I mostly do NOT look to nail Weirs tone exactly because of what the music calls for within our configuration. It is nice to know how to dial it in from time to time though, which is why I always closely follow your quest. :-) Would love to Jam this weekend but alas, family obligations are preventing me. We are playing a big room next friday 1/5, Toads Place in New Haven, come on up I have some free tix for you, we will talk gear (and I would would love it if I could use your rack, bring that IVP with the UE700 and your boogie and I would be in Heaven! ;-) and also I'll see if i can't get you up there for a tune or two. Email me offline if interested. Happy New Year, Also it looks like you posted some stuff after that I would like to discuss to, I will post back later and so far I still we are Ibanez enough that this is still "on topic" at ICW, no need to take it to gearheads.....yet :-)   Jeffm725 Username: Jeffm725 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 12:33 pm:    boy, that last sentence of mine is a travesty (well more of a travesty than the rest of the post), not going to bother to translate but it is missin the word think and to should be too   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 1:01 pm:    Jeff: coil tap on the bridge pup in your 2681??? Great move!! Certainly a step in the right direction (purists & collectors, please don't flame me!) Toad's?? Wow, thanks for the offer! I'll think about it. When thinks settle down, let's definitely get together. mk

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