Germany and Hoshino, what's the conne...

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Author Message   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 9:58 am:    Wolfgang, folks, Is it my perception or is it truly the case that Germany seems to have access to some unique vintage Ibanez products? Is/was there a special dealer in Germany who had special access to the Ibanez products in the '70s and '80s? Especially some of the limited editions... Were these done specially for Germany? Is/was there some huge collector(s) in Germany that brought these guitars in? Most recently, Wolfgang was talking about (and has collected) some very special series-1 Artwoods (1979-1981). How did these get to Germany? That wasn't the first time I'd heard about special guitars in Germany, so I thought I'd post and ask... Is there some connection there?   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 7:02 am:    It is the DISTRIBUTOR in the respective country, who makes an estimate of what will sell in his country. Then he chooses an assortment for his country. If he got complaints/wishes about missing features in the past year(s) he can ask Hoshino headquarters "Can't you make them with feature X, because if we have them here, I know I will sell quite a lot of them, I've got dozens of requests laying here." And if it's possible, Hoshino says O.K. and the factory gets permission make these guitars with these features. That's one scenario: through Ibanez headquarters. The other scenario is that the distributor had the authority to directly order from the factory. What I saw in an old German catalogue (Meinl) some time ago, is that they WROTE IN THE 1980 CATALOGUE that THEY ordered a certain guitar especially for Germany: Another example: My favourite Korean model the AS120. I saw in the catalogues on Ibanezrules (USA) that there were white one and cherry reds in the USA. I have never seen them here. The DISTRIBUTOR decides what colours are going to be sold in his country. The power of the dealers is very minimal. They can send in requests to the distributor. There is never direct contact between dealers and Hoshino headquarters. Sometimes the distributor IS Hoshino (for instance Serlui was taken over and is now Hoshino Benelux). But I doubt that the influence of our ex-Serlui is bigger than Meinl's, because Meinl has served a market that was 4 times as big as the Benelux and with success. Germany was and remains the engine of the European economy. That's why Fender Europe is based in Germany now (who needs Arbiter?). So, the very special series-1 Artwoods (1979-1981) were simply especially ordered by Meinl. Remember that the USA luthiers we know now came mainly originally from Germany, where they had a tradition of instrument making with a hierarchy. Christian Friedrich Martin for instance was a German immigrant, who built... guitar cases in Germany and was NOT accepted as a luthier. Then he left Germany. Roger Rossmeisl was German, Gretsch was German just a few examples to illustrate that there was a certain high standard in Germany when it comes to building guitar. From this tradition come these high end demands from the side of the customers. They want a guitar to be as good as a Mercedes Benz. We call that "Deutsche Gruendlichkeit". If Meinl receives such requests, through his dealers or directly, they aren't going to say "no", but the German customer is a generous customer, always willing to pay for quality. However, if the quality doesn't meet his expectations, he walks and you won't get him back that easy (just look at Opel). Ginger   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 4:19 pm:    Interesting, Ginger! What is the history of Meinl in Germany and Europe, in general? Have these folks always distributed Ibanez in Germany? Do they distribute other brands as well? Your comment about high luthier standards in Germany is an interesting one, Ginger. It makes me question why Hoshino in the '70s and '80s (earlier too, maybe?) would have even tried to push Japanese products into Germany. I find that astonishing. Japanese products in the US were viewed as cheap knockoffs in those days and were just barely starting to get respectability. E.g., Toyotas and Hondas were really only just starting to get a foothold here, for example, because of their efficiency and low prices. I can only imagine how the Germans looked at Japanese products at the time. Was Hoshino out to kill that stereotype? I guess they succeeded since they sold some very cool Ibanez guitars there. Someone must've been buying...   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 5:26 pm:    Meinl is a leading brand of cymbals and percussion instruments. I think the first link was that they became distributor of TAMA. Japan and Germany had been allies in World War II, so. Meinl represents the Turkish cymbal sound as opposed to the Chinese cymbal sound. Turkey and Germany had been allies in World War I. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meinl_Percussion The Japanese firms sought for reliable contacts for the European market. Germany was and is a historical trading partner. And since TAMA and Ibanez were sister firms, Meinl became the distributor not only for drums, but also for guitars of both brands. BTW, compared to German electric guitars, the Japanese guitars weren't that bad. Old Hofners and Framus electric guitars were not better than Ibanez. I even suspect that several German firms had several models and/or parts produced in Japan, because of the cheap labour. Actually, I know that for sure, because Dieter Hopf told me so. I once asked information about a filigrane soundhole in some Hopf guitar I had seen. I said that it looked like a Daion from Japan (lasered filigrane soundhole). And he said "Stimmt, das war dieses Filigrainmodell, die wurden damals in Japan unter Lizenz gebaut". So Dieter Hopf himself confirmed this for his firm. Then I have another suspicion about the necks of certain Framus models. I have seen a ply maple fretboards on a Framus guitar that was the same construction as my Sakai Thinline Telecaster fretboard, which is dozens of maple strips of 1 mm against each other to make one fretboard. It looks like there was some relation too. What's beautiful BTW, is that Framus has just founded a Framus museum, where I could ask for information about this hypothesis. The way Germans looked at the quality of Japanese guitars or at the quality of guitars in general AFTER World War II is different from the early 19th century. C.F. Martin fled for the power of the lutherie guild, which would not allow him to make anything but cases, and founded his company in 1833 in the USA. After World War II Germany was poor and in ashes. Their national sport became walking (marching with no particular goal), and they used very cheap guitar for that, so-called "Wandergitarren". If you compare these guitars to the Ibanez guitars of that time, the Ibanez guitars were not so bad. And of course almost nobody could afford a real Fender or Gibson, so for almost everybody these brands were out of the question. Ginger   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 5:42 pm:    Great history lesson, Ginger! I do understand Germany's condition after WWII, but I'm talking about the 1970s... Germany (well, West Germany at the time) was surely not so poor as you mentioned by this time. However, that said, maybe the post-war mentality in Germany allowed the Japanese products to be accepted easier. Very interesting the connection with Tama! I'll bet you're right on with that! And I agree about Framus Werke, by the way... I don't see these as superior to Ibanez in any way.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 6:24 pm:    The era of the plywood "Wandergitarren" was in the Fifties. That was the era in which German consumers had to accept poor quality, because that was what they could afford. After this "new standard" was set, the power of the lutherie guild didn't really return. Before Germany had recovered and developed itself as the "Wirtschaftswunder" (with Marshall help, let's not forget that), the guitar had become an industrial mass product. Only the lucky few bought masterbuilt guitars. Now, these Artwoods offered good value for the money. They were not as expensive as masterbuilt German guitars, but not as bad as the German factory guitars either. Ginger   Wolle_schmidt Username: Wolle_schmidt Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 3:38 pm:    Hello Ginger. I started in 1978 with guitar playing. At first I got an Hoeffner. I got it for one year. It was a no-cool-nylon-string. We heart Dylan, Donovan, Croce, Cat Stevens.. and than you need a steel-string. In 1979 there were no Martins or Gibson in Germany for me. No dealer give me one in my hands. I was 16 years old and don't look for enough money. The only change was to take a Framus - really un-cool - or a Hoeffner - super un-cool - or a Ibanez. You get a Ibanez for the same price as an un-cool German guitar.... There were many kids like me. Years later we bought electric guitars from Ibanez... Meindl is here in Germany the Ibanez distributer and they sold many Ibanez. Yes there are same special Ibanez models in Germany, but I not for the first Artwoods. The AW-120 limited, AW-160 limited and AW200 limited are only sold in Japan. I know only one other AW-70 limited here in Germany. I don't know were the other 118 will be. But they offered them not only in Germany. The first and second series of Artwoods are sell very well. They stopped the all solid Artwoods in 1982 or 1983. Then they only build Artwoods with laminated body and solid tops. In 1975 to 1985 there were a lot of acoustic guitar players here in Germany. It is like today. The acoustic scene is growing already. The musicans are guys between 40 and 50 years with enough money for a solid guitar. The children went the own ways and the parents got time for their old guitar. Look at Lakewood or the German market. There are Collings, Lowdens, Martins, Gibsons, Taylors, Larrivees, Santa Cruzs at the German musikmesse in Frankfurt. You can find Mr. Hoover, Mr. Martin or Jean Larrivee looking the German market... Sorry for my terrible English. I am only a German guitar player. Keep on playing acoustic.   Wolle_schmidt Username: Wolle_schmidt Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 4:01 pm:    Hello Ginger - sorry, I made some mistakes ...The first and second series of Artwoods are sold not very well...   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 9:23 pm:    Hi Wolfgang!! You guys have shed a lot of light on this. I guess I was wrong about the Artwoods. But, I do see now why German collectors are interested in Ibanez guitars.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 7:06 am:    Hey Wolfgang, Good that you mention Lakewood (Martin Seeliger). I have two Lakewoods: A solid rosewood M-32 in the old satin finish (now they are available in high gloss) and a solid mahogany D-8 (which is not in production anymore). Finally a German brand that can compete with Martin. A whole lot different than Framus and Hofner and other terrible plywood "Nachkriegsgitarren". Btw, I called Martin for info about my second hand D-8, and he told me he had them built under license at the Musima factory in East-Germany. It has only an L in the headstock, like Hans Sibbel's (economist, performing under the name "Lebbis) guitar of "Lebbis en Jansen". His guitar is a different type made of maple but also from the Musima era. http://www.lakewood.de/ http://variatee.vara.nl/mediaplayer/player.jsp?fil mID=216477 Ginger   Wolle_schmidt Username: Wolle_schmidt Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:21 pm:    Hello. I want to write same more words about that. > ...The first and second series of Artwoods are sold not very well... The Artwoods in 1979 were to expensive there for they are very rare. I know only round about ten. For example I know a TAMA collector near munich and he has more than 30 TAMAs. The German Ibanez collector are searching for electric guitars or acoustics before 1975. That's the reason you find only a few at the market. The Artwoods I bought were only from private owner and not from professionals. So they are all in super conditions. I hope that there are same Artwoods left by private owners already. I am searching for a 12 string. There for I offer my AW-70 DM. Interesting? Wolle

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