Let's Define "Outlaw" or "Lawsuit"...

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Author Message JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    OK, next to "rare", "outlaw/lawsuit" is the favorite buzz word in Ibanez ads (seems to be epidemic on ebay). Here's an example: Outlaw Ibanez Here's today's essay question: J Does this guitar fit the description implied by "outlaw"? If not, why do you say so? Jake Kurdsjuk Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    John, According to the argument outlined in the Gibson "lawsuit" this guitar shouldn't apply since the headstock is not the "open-book" style Gibson used but instead the more Guild-like style that Ibanez switched to. Aside from that you have the bolt-on neck and the different headstock inlay which, IMO, make this guitar close, but no cigar. I had a bolt-on that had the open-book style and split diamond inlays that was nearly impossible to tell from a Gibson from over 15 feet. Because of the headstock this was, legally speaking, a lawsuit guitar. JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Jake: Here's another take on theme: a "LAWSUIT SERIES" ES175. I seem to have missed this designation in Ibanez's catalogs. J Lawsuit Series Isn't this supposed to have the Gibson "open-book" headstock, not a Guild, tulip style? BTW, the guitar does look beautiful. JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    On second thought, it's possible that the angle of the photo just doesn't show the indentation in the "open-book" style headstock. JohnS Jake K Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    John, No, you were right the first time. I'm really not sure when they switched over, but I've seen 76 LP copies with the same headstock, so the switch must have been 75 or before. Every open book LP headstock I've seen's been on pre-serial number models, but that's just me. Jake spiro Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Well now I think that the lawsuit series guitars are probably the closest looking to the originals that they copied eg. the korina series and the LP Customs with the Sail inlay on the already Gibson looking open book headstock. I have never in my travels come across an open book headstock set neck copy.IMO the lawsuit guitars were not of the same quality as the later models (Guild style headstock with V IN U inlay.. I am constantly in the process of restoring Ibanez LP Copies especially Lawsuit series. And I will let you know that everyone i have come across has a 3ply pressed top with 8 layer (cannot see the 8th because it is covered by the finish)look binding (not really binding because it is only a few Millimeters thick except for the outer binding layer. Now these lawsuit guitars are made of mahogany strips about 3cm wide and 2cm high by the the length of the body. In the middle of the two strips is a layer of maple which is the light line you can see running right across the body on the edge. So in actual fact the LP copies are made of about 20 different pieces of wood. Now this may sound as if these guitars are of poor construction and most builders will tell you so, but I have never seen anything made so well when it comes to Copies. The most important part of these copies is that you put one up against a Gibson LP Custom and no matter what the Ibanez sounds bigger and deeper and huge and stuff like that. This is because the Ibanez has a hollow area around the belly of the guitar which give it more depth than a complete solid body guitar. The later LP Copies have a different neck to the lawsuit series and as have a different layout of the controls. The controls on the lawsuits are closer together and have almost a diamond shaped control cavity plate while the later ones have more of a gibson size cavity. The lawsuit series headstocks did not have a layer of black plastic with the inlays on them but were rather painted on with black paint. Some had real abalone sail inlays with plastic Ibanez inlays and others had Mother of pearl sail inlays with the plastic Ibanez inlay. Two different bridge types were available on the Lawsuit series. One was a Les Paul Tunamatic look alike (Gotoh replacement part Number GE103B-T) and the other was what Gibson called the Nashville type (Gotoh identical part GEB30G) the tail piece was the usual Gibson style (Gotoh Identical part GE101ZG). Depending on which factory made them thats what parts you got either Fuji Genn Gakki or Hoshino. Pickups were either The later called Super 70's with the neck pick having two extra magnets (don't know why?) stuck on the bottom, or, Maxxon fake humbuckers. again whatever was in the parts bin at the time.. Tuning pegs where do I start ? These are my observations I think I got a little too excited, But if snyone has any thing to add feel free and also I may have made a mistake please correct me. Oh by the way I have a friend that has a 1976 Catalog and the headstocks are of the guild type . This was the catalog that was held back from 75 (guitar stories volume 1).. mark mcgrew Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    i was playing a firebird V replica in 1976, and remember well when the dealers had to quit selling these incredibly cool guitars, and thier brothers, the now famous Korina series, because ibanez was entangled in some "discussion" with Gibson over the quality of their "fakes" .... seems Gibson was building instruments of a quality higher than Gibson could achieve at that time, and at a much lower price ... i recently ( bout 3 yrs ago ) found a korina explorer all original in a pawn shop for 125.00, brought it home, gave it a quick once over, added emg pickups, and its STILL incredible ..... in short, the lawsuit guitars are the ones you CANT tell from gibsons ... even the name script looks the same at a glance ... MUST be set neck, correct materials, they are out there and when ya see em you know ..... by the way im looking for a 592fb or 593 banjo .... help ??? mark mcgrew Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    mark mcgrew can be contacted @ gtrpikker@netscape.net if you know of a banjo Difstrummer Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    As a matter of accuracy, the term "lawsuit" should be the correct term; "outlaw" implies something "illegal" (like Philippine forgeries) and technically speaking, the "copy era" copies weren't illegal. There actually was a lawsuit, filed by Norlin (Gibson)against Elger (Ibanez) in the summer of '77 in Philadelphia. I actually went to the Federal Courthouse in Philly, plopped in a microfiche they had at the end of the counter, and found the record of the filing. The issue was trademark infringement based upon headstock design. Gibson focused on the heads, but also was PO'd about the use of similar names in the catalogs (I think Ibanez called the Les Paul a Les or something like that). Now, here's the funny part. Gibson's lawyers were complaining to Elger/Ibanez for a long time about use of the "open book" headstock. Ironically, by the Fall of '76 Ibanez had redesigned their headstocks to look like a Guild head, so by the time the lawsuit was really filed, the heads had been changed. So, while "lawsuit" head means a Gibson copy head, the head at the time of the lawsuit was actually a Guild!! Other companies like St. Louis Music (Electra)offered to help with the suit. Anyhow, Ibanez made an out-of-court settlement with Norlin and agreed to stop copying the headstock and using similar names. The first models introduced after the agreement were the Performers, Les Pauls with the little Tele curve and the tulip head. Quickly thereafter followed the Studios and Musicians. Ads for the tulip head began to appear in the fall of '76 in Guitar Player. I don't think they were around yet for the summer '76 NAMM show, or Gibson might have called off the dogs. By the way, I have a glued-neck 1 pickup SG "copy." I've not seen a glued-neck Les Paul, but I seem to recall that they are in the '74 price list, so some must have been made. You should also keep in mind that the early Ibanez "copies" weren't that plentiful. We tend to think of Ibanez in late '80s terms when they were •••• of the roost and making lots of guitars; the early '70s were not so loaded. One last word; I know that there are some inadequacies in the Ibanez chapter of GS1, though by and large it's pretty accurate as far as it goes. On the back burner is a plan to produce a more detailed opus along the lines of my more recent work, though I'm not sure when I'll get around to it, nor where it will be published (probably Vintage Guitar Magazine). Michael Wright The Different Strummer Harold Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Michael, Thank you for the update about "Lawsuit" guitars. I would like for you to know that your research has helped us all gain more knowledge about Ibanez guitars. Your book "Guitar Stories, Vol. 1" is a timeless treasure. I hope you keep the books coming! If you need any information for your next book just ask and we will all be happy to share information and photos. Thank you for participating in this Ibanez Collectors Site. I know some of us might challenge you from time to time it's all in the spirit of learning and sharing. Afterall, who knows if it wasn't for your book this site might not exist. You have been a Hugh inspiration to us guitar collectors! All the best, Harold JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Michael: Thanks for stopping by and helping us get a better grasp on this subject. I think the "cow is out of the barn", though, regarding the term "outlaw". The popular trend of romanticizing "rebels and outlaws" is going to keep that term alive (and misapplied) to Ibanez replicas. It just sounds more exciting. J Misapplying the term "lawsuit" however, is something a little education can help to correct. And it's a fascinating story of Ibanez "dodging the bullet." Harold is correct that this site might not exist without your work in tracking down information about "the other cool guitars". Even so, all Ibanez collectors are in debt to you for the fantastic work you've accomplished, so far. Keep up the good work! Thanks, JohnS ICW Fred B. Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Michael, Just wanted to add to the list of thanks for putting out GS1. It's a great reference, plus the style of storytelling makes it a great read. Another bonus is that it's helping to unravel a few decades of marketing hype directed against these models. Think anyone who's pulled out an Ibanez and heard something like "oh, Jap copy", regardless of the model, can attest to this. Regards, Fred Mark Munchenberg Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Michael Wright refers to advertising in the Fall '76 Guitar Player which features the new headstocks. Here's a copy of the ad from a May 1976 Guitar Player. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this would have been at least two months before that year's NAMM show where Gibson lawyers attempted to impound "Lawsuit Headstock" guitars. It seems that Gibson were charging around quite blindly in terms of pursuing Ibanez for copyright infringements when Ibanez were actually advertising that they were no longer copying such headstock designs. Cheers, Mark Munchenberg Michael Wright Posted on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 8:58 am:    Mark, Actually, that makes it a YEAR and TWO MONTHS!! The lawsuit didn't come until 1977. My guess is that there were two things going on. Probably Gibson's lawyers weren't paying too much attention. Also the headstock was just an excuse; they were annoyed at the whole phenomenon. Don't forget, this was the period when Gibson and Fender quality was hitting low levels. Hoshino continued to make copies into 1978, but they most likely were for other markets than the US, probably UK and Europe. There was actually another amusing "lawsuit" a couple years later. Hoshino thought Yamaha was coming too close to it's Ibanez headstocks and sued them in New York, I believe. Ibanez showed up with tons of documentation and Yamaha's lawyer had nothing, so they lost. All of this will be documented in the new Ibanez book coming out next year... Michael Wright The Different Strummer Mark Munchenberg (Munch) Posted on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 9:45 pm:    Michael, That's cool. Can't wait for the new book. Is there any info you need from any of us?? Regards, Mark

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