Bolt-on Les Paul models - how good ar...

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Author Message Mickf Username: Mickf Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 4:21 pm:    I once owned an Ibanez Les Paul (I think it was a 2351), which I unfortunately sold 20 years ago. I remember it had a multi-piece mahogany body with two layers of veneer and a veneer top. It looked like a carved top with the typical Gibson shape but was hollow underneath. The Pickups sounded very vintage (at least I remember them this way), warm and jazzy, but they were not usable for hard rock since they were so microphonic. The neck was just a bolt-on, the tuners did not work very well and the gold plating had come off at many places, so I finally sold it. Is/Was this the famous Ibanez Les Paul people praise so much on the Internet? When I compare my two Artists (a 2613 from the early 70s, multi-piece body, bolt on neck, just like my Les Paul copy, but with DiMarzios and Schaller tuners and Jumbo-frets, the other an AR500 from 82) I must say there are worlds between these two guitars, and I think that, just like my old Artist, the Les Paul copy probably did not sound like a Les Paul at all. What does the Collector's forum think about that? Lespaul Username: Lespaul Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 5:02 pm:    I totally agree with you on all points. Paul Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 7:13 pm:    Mick & Les...You make some valid points except I think you missed the most important-namely how old was the guitar ? If you were to compare an early LP copy, say a 1972/3 to one of the later ones 76/77, you would find a world of difference ! Although both guitars are most likely going to be bolt ons, the later one would likely sport a bookmatched flamed maple top, multiple layer bindings, Gotoh sealed gear tuners, Super 70's pups (argrueabley the closest thing to a Gib*** PAF ever made)and a Three pc laminated rock maple neck. These later guitars are the most prized in my collection. Sure the "Lawsuite" headstocks are cool looking, but you cant beat the later models for the build quality, ease of play and sound of these inexpensive "just bolt on" guitars. I have a Set neck Deluxe 59'er that simply blows away my 72 LP custom in every way-Looks, Sound, versatility, & Vibe. These later LP's set the stage for the Artists, Musicians, Concerts, Performers, etc that were to come. Agr Username: Agr Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 7:20 pm:    I have gone through about 7 Ibanez LP copies including two Performer series...PF-200 and PF-300. I prefer the Performers which were later transitional models. As Dave g said...the later models are far more refined than the earlier models. Even the neck on the Performers is more "Artist" like in feel (and width). Snowjays Username: Snowjays Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 8:42 pm:    I'd have to agree with Dave. You have to consider the bolt on LP was only a cheap entry into the market place for Ibanez. It was the Super 70pups that were the making of these guitars and as a Gibxxx look alike, every kid I knew wanted one at the time. In 1975, consider the competition, a Coronet, Univox or Tempo, and quality did not rate a comparison. So the Ibanez LP was incedible buying when a kid only had $2 weekly allowance. When the new models came out in 1977, they were certainly a far better build body wise and fittings. At that time I bought my 2613 second hand and although it was a few years old, the build quality of the Artist in 1973/4, certainly exceeded the LP's. The guitars that are most promenant are the set neck LP's and replica's. They absolutely blow the bolt-ons away. Far better sustain, No neck joint movement, maple neck etc. Ibanez started producing theese toward the end of 1973 (correct me if I'm wrong) It's theese few set neck replica's that I think generated the praise originally, and was well backed up in 1977 with the new models including the Artist series. Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 11:12 pm:    Snow, Don't get me wrong here...the later bolt necks are very nice guitars-quality build, no movement in the necks-thats just set neck snobbery. Trust me , I own over 50 vintage Gibson guitars- LP's, SG's, 335's, L6s, etc, as well as hundreds of Vintage Ibanez and -quite frankly-my best playing and "go to" guitar is a 1976 Deluxe 59er with an unbelieveable book mached flame top and KILLER super 70's. This guitar routinely eats Strats, LP's and Teles at my weekly "over the hill gang" blues sessions. Most players can not believe its a bolt neck copy it slound so good ! Yea the "set neck" LP's of late 70's are very nice, but it really isn't about the neck joint totally. Lespaul Username: Lespaul Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 4:10 am:    Whoohoo! Nice topic! Dave, you are so right about the super70's and the trend of the Ibanez LP copies getting steadily better over the years. With some exceptions I guess we can say: the higher the serialnumber; the "better" the guitar. Paul Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 5:47 am:    Hi All! My vision to this theme: because of the way the bolt-on Ibanez Les Pauls were constructed (with the hollow tops, also in the late 70's) they can not be compared to a "real" G****n Les Paul when it comes to sound. That's just a result of the different way of used woods and totally different way of building. The eventual sound you get of ANY guitar is a match of used woods, construction and electronics (and of course beyond the guitar: your amplifier/effects etc.). My belief: all bolt-on Ibanez Les Pauls-with-hollow-tops sound somewhat "lighter" than the real thing, with more "bite" and a significant higher danger of microphonic feedback. Of course the Super 70-equipped ones were already far better than the earliest 70's that had Maxon pickups, but still you can hear the difference. If you want to compare: I'd say these bolt-ons sound more like a G****n SG than like a Les Paul. When in the late 70's Ibanez launched set neck Les Paul copies with a solid top you might say that these were great copies which came near the real thing in feel, playability and sound. I myself have a sunburst set neck/solid top Ibanez LP and it really blows away any bolt-on Ibanez LP I have (about 18) when it comes to "Les Paul sound". Nevertheless, the bolt-ons with Super 70's are good guitars in their own way if you know how to use them and where to use them for. Kind greetz, Harry Snowjays Username: Snowjays Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 6:49 pm:    "Set Neck Snobbery".....Interesting terminology, but all I'm echoing is the sentiment that players had for Ibanez guitars back in the late 70's. Most guitarists around here were keen to get there hands on an early set neck LP. They were like gold, great to play and far more durable than a bolt-on. As Paul said "the higher the serial No, the better the guitar". Certainly the bolt-ons got better built quality as time progressed. Now days, it seems that too many people have it in their minds that the "lawsuite" model is a must have, when in fact the better ones were built after 1976 with the tulip headstock. Mick asked the question, "Was this the famous Ibanez Les Paul people praise so much on the Internet?" It's just my opinion that the Ibanez legend started from models such as the 2386 and custom agent. The early Ibanez set necks set the benchmark as a must have players guitar. Don't get me wrong about the bolt-ons, I've had dozens of those, and my favorite players still include a 2613 and 2388. Stewbob22 Username: Stewbob22 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 9:40 pm:    i have 1977 ibanez les paul custom with supr 70's pickups that i am restoring and im having problems finding backplates that fit can anyone help me thanks Stogie Username: Stogie Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 11:21 pm:    Snow, if you ever want to sell the 2613, lemme know. I love that guitar! Mickf Username: Mickf Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 7:28 am:    I really enjoy the discussion I seem to have triggered and I appreciate the info on the old models I got here. Unfortunately, there are not too many around anymore (in Austria), and ebay seemsto be a pretty slippery ground when it comes to buying "original" old Ibanezes. Rastapanda Username: Rastapanda Registered: 11-2005 Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 4:23 am:    "I guess we can say: the higher the serialnumber; the "better" the guitar." Wow. This makes me optimistic that my '77 LP Custom setneck lefthand might be some nice guitar. it's serial is: K775658 so quite a high serial I guess. *smiles-from-ear-to-ear* Dandip Username: Dandip Registered: 11-2005 Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 6:05 pm:    Hi...newcomer to group. I have what I believe to be a "lawsuit" Les Paul. I find no #numbers. Any way to determine date and type? I could send some digitals to whomever> Thanks, Dan Johns Username: Johns Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 8:42 am:    Dan: There are some telltale features that will help narrow down the year and model. But without a serial number, there are no guarantees about the accuracy of the dating. But you will get the best educated guesses available. So, pictures are the only way to see those details. If you can't figure out how to upload images with your messages here, you can email them to me. Just click on my username, to the left and attach them to the email that pops up. But first, try looking at these messages to see if you can do the uploading yourself: http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=14&post=34073#POST34 073 Billpointer Username: Billpointer Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 4:01 pm:    Hey guys,i have a bolt on "77 IB LP that has the super 70's pups,and that thing screams,yes yes, i love my guitar. i wish some one could tell me the right model number for it? Lespaul Username: Lespaul Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 5:19 pm:    We need more details(picture!) to tell the modelnumber. Paul Billpointer Username: Billpointer Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 6:59 am:    thanks for the feedback les paul, but after some research on this i site,i find it to be a "77 february 2351 tabaco burst. up until xmas '05 i also had a "73(i think) 2391 but,handed it over to my nephew for it was his dads who died in "90 and was holding on to it until i felt he was old enough to understand the importance of this guitar Lespaul Username: Lespaul Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 10:57 am:    Have fun with it! Paul Billpointer Username: Billpointer Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 8:25 pm:    ive got an idea...all of us who owns an old beat up (the unholy word...starts with G) les-paul copy show our stuff,hey i have always been in love with these things.when i was 11 and was learning to play i didnt know (g the unholy word)i was always told....hey be careful with my IBANEZ or i'll kick your butt. i played that thing through fen,er princeton r verb wide open and then in somewheres bout "94 i found a 772351 at a music store for $300 and i had to have it.so...i got it. as i stated above i also had a "73 2391 (the first electric i ever played) and i must tell you, the later the s# the better the guitar.iam just a normal not a lot of bucks guy who just happens to love these guitars. so i will try to put some pics up on the site so you all can see my super 70"s ( imean 77 2351..i have learned a little on this site haha) Bill Pitviper Username: Pitviper Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 5:30 pm:    Rastapanda, if you ever want to sell that '77 lefty, let me know about it. Markmann Username: Markmann Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 8:12 am:    Great topic, guys!!! I just have to jump in and add my .02. I'm a long time player and have owned lots of guitars over the years including some choice Gibby LP's. That said, I currently own 10 guitars and of those 10 four are bolt-ons. believe it or not my number one guitar is a 1975 Ibanez LP that I have owned since new. It no longer has the original pup's (whatever they were)but this guitar is awesome. I play it almost every day and have gigged with it many times and it is still mint. I have tried to find a suitable replacement so that I can retire this great guitar but have yet to find one that plays as nice or sounds as good. FYI, my number 2 is a Deluxe AM Strat... also a bolt-on. Billpointer Username: Billpointer Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 9:36 am:    my '77 Billpointer Username: Billpointer Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 10:58 am:    Billpointer Username: Billpointer Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 11:02 am:    Billpointer Username: Billpointer Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 12:50 pm:    jeezzz how sad is this??? cant post a pic Billpointer Username: Billpointer Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 12:52 pm:

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