Dating Catalogues

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Author Message Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 11:43 am:    Hi all! Been doing some research in order to specify the year of appearance of some Ibanez catalogues and therefor the correct year of appearance of some 70's Ibanez copy models. Two major things I discovered: the catalogue we first believed to be a 1970 one ( the small rectangular blue envelope with the separate model "sheets" - Orval just bought one) must to my opinion be re-dated to 1972 because the major reason: it already has the Les Paul Recording in it and Gibson did not launch this model until 1971. Most probably the Ibanez version appeared one year later, but certainly not in 1970 (you can't copy a guitar that doesn't yet excist, can you?) The second discovery: the catalogue that has René Gustafsson on the cover must be from 1974 and not from 1973, like we (I) always believed. This is for some reasons: In the same ordner where this booklet is, we also find the first Artist series and all sources I found tell us that these Artists appeared in 1974. Another main reason that this never can be a 1973 catalogue is the fact that we find a copy of the Les Paul Signature and the original Gibson version appeared in 1973. Seems rather impossible for a copy brand to have that one in the 1973 catalogue too. So most probably this catalogue appeared in 1974. Please think with me, because I need your thoughts on this matter. If my research is correct we will have to change some data on our home page in order to provide visitors with the correct (adjusted) information. Thanks in advantage! Kind greetz, Harry Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 1:46 am:    Just to keep this item "hot". Please fellow Ibaneezers, tell me if my thoughts could be right according the corrected year-identification of the catalogues. Kind greetz, Harry Johns Username: Johns Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 8:58 am:    Harry: If your information about the introduction of the original Gibson models is correct (I have no idea whether it is or not..so I'll believe anything) I'd say you have correctly deduced that the catalog dates should be adjusted. I'm sure you know this, it's very common for companies to put small numbers on the edges of printed materials to help keep track of the dates these items were printed and even the quantity printed. For instance on my old FA, SA, George Benson, Concert series catalog it says: HT-266-12-77-20000. I interpret this to mean it was printed in December (12th month) of 1977. I assume the 20000 is the quantity printed. Are there no such numbers on any of these materials? Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 6:40 pm:    Harry/Hassy Just got a copy of your Ibanez feature in UK "Guitar Buyer" mag form Paul A. Very cool and a good read too. PS Thanks Paul six Fox Username: Fox Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 7:47 pm:    Harry, FYI, Gibson LP Signature, as model, was introduced 1973,true, but only 3 were shipped from factory in 1973.. So, to get a hold of one of those three... More likely they got their "reference model" in 1974... LP Recording on other hand, 236 shipped from factory 1971, the year it was introduced. Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 6:51 am:    Hi Fox and John! Thanks for your useful information. Like it says in "Ibanez-the untold story" the Japanese could be very quick with launching a copy very short after the presentation of the original. I guess that already in those days they took pictures at shows where novilties were presented, flew back home and started to work on copies of these new models. In fact you say that I must be right: Gibson's LP Recording was first launched in 1971, so the Ibanez version most probably appeared in the Ibanez 1972 catalogue. The first Gibson LP Signatures left the factory in 1973 and so the Ibanez copy could never have been in a 1973 Ibanez catalogue, but in the 1974 one. Thanks for your input. John, indeed I checked all my catalogues on "serial numbers" that might reveal the year of print. Unfortunately the numbers not always make sense: The blue envelope-catalogue with the separate sheets has only: "printed in Japan". The "Rene Gustafsson catalogue" has only "Printed in Japan" and "HG-47" and is the copy-guitar/bass section of the big overall Ibanez/Tama ordner that has no year-of-print indication anywhere. Some other sections also have only "HG" referrences. I have an incomplete German catalogue that says "HT-74-5-23-50000. That could mean: 50000 printed on May 23., 1974. In this German catalogue are featured: the Gibson LP Signature, the first Artists, Custom Agent etc. just like in the Rene Gustafsson catalogue. That would mean that the René G. most probably is from 1974 too. Anybody else who wants to shine his light on this catalogue dating matter? The more thoughts, the more we can be sure about wether to correct things or not. Please jump in! Kind greetz, Harry Johns Username: Johns Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:23 am:    Harry: Looks like you're getting closer to the answer. Too bad they didn't consistently use a numbering system on their printed pieces. But hey, they didn't do it for their guitars, either. I wonder if "HG" stands for Hoshino Gakki? What could "HT" stand for? Like Six, PaulA sent me a copy of the Guitar Buyer with you and Hasy showcased (Ibanezeer Geezers). Excellent work by all involved! I like Hasy's "Don't dream it-be it!" slogan. He needs a seat belt on his toilet if he's doesn't want to get hurt. I've been staring at the walnut model 2467 and the full page photo of the carved Strat. Awesome work guys! Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 2:17 pm:    Hi John! HT: Hoshino Takki???? Greetz, Harry Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 2:19 pm:    By the way: Paul Alcantara would send me and Hasy some copies of Guitar Buyer....until now never received one.... CURIOUS!!!!!!! Thanks for the compliments, anyway. Harry Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 1:05 am:    Hi all! Just to keep this item hot. Any more reactions from other ICW members? Kind greetz, Harry Snowjays Username: Snowjays Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Sunday, April 02, 2006 - 9:21 pm:    Harry, Check out this auction. This says that the Gibson Recorder was in the 1970 catalogue. http://www.qksrv.net/click-1802666-10381315?loc=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D7402154823 Tom. Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 8:03 am:    Here is a cool link with PDF Gibby catalog scans including the 1970... http://www.gibsonbass.com/catalogues.php Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 8:06 am:    I think Harry is right because the guitar in this scan is called the Les Paul Personal! It is similar to the recorder though. Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 1:15 pm:    Hi all! Thanks for the input! Freak, you're right. Both are The Les Paul Professional model. So I guess the launching of the Recording was indeed in 1971, as we see both the guitar and the bass version in the 1971 catalogue on the site you mentioned. Anyway: thanks for all the help! Appreciate it! Kind greetz, Harry Fox Username: Fox Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 6:37 pm:    Both predecessors of Les Paul Recording, namely Les Paul Personal and Les Paul Professional came 1969.. First ones, 2 each, were shipped from factory late 1969, albeit the major production run started 1970. Les Paul Personal disappeared totally 1973, only 146 guitars made, LP Professional, also disappeared the same year, made a "resurrection" in 1977-79. But the model of Ibanez copy, the LP Recording, appeared 1971. The companion bass models were available about the same time, but the LP Bass lasted a little longer... Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 4:49 am:    Fox How can Ibanez launch a Recording copy in 1971 when the original Gibby Recording appeared in 1971? That would only be possible if the Gibby came out very early in '71 and (if the Japanese worked fast) the Ibanez version in the last months of '71. Isn't it more likely that the Ibanez version appeared in the catalogue that should be (re-)dated as the 1972 one? Thanks for your investigations anyway! Kind greetz, Harry Fox Username: Fox Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 9:08 am:    Harry, that was my point..although LP Recording might have come to the market on the first quadrant of 1971, and although there had been both the Personal as wel as Professional, they differ quite a lot from the Recording, visually the differences are not so drastic but electronics differ.. I have done work on both Ibby and Gibby Recording, and they have lots in common.. My 2 cents - I�d say the catalogue is from 1972.. Glad to help, even a little bit! Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 1:13 pm:    Thanks Fox! Harry

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