VERY Expensive Challenger

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Author Message   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 4:58 pm:    Just a little overpriced... Ebay Item #120120711831 mk   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 6:46 pm:    The BIN price in US dollars is the year it was built. Serial number CA780085 So, the younger the guitar, the higher the price? BTW, it's perhaps interesting to know that this guitar belonged to MIKE MANIAC in March 2004. It's in his list. (Captain's log star date March 14, 2004 - 11:08 pm) Ginger   Pitchpocket Username: Pitchpocket Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 7:43 pm:    My white '77 Challenger has a serial number of F770068 so they had to make them longer than 3-4 months as he speculated. It is a great guitar. I doubt it too, but I hope he gets the price!!   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 8:56 pm:    Here's a link to an ICW Challenger discussion with pics of your guitar, Pitch: http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/discus/messages/13 /939.html#POST28629 The prices mentioned: 350, 450. So, if we add some inflation correction perhaps $550-650 The 2575 Challenger is 480 euros on the Argus list, which is quite static, while the eBay market is quite dynamic. Ginger   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 9:13 am:    wow. there's a black one on the bay now and it was about 200.00 US. i wonder if something on that piece is solid gold? like all of it. but i saw an ash one last year that the ask was 2k. i don't believe he had any takers. ginger's price assement is pretty spot on, as far as a have seen. but who knows.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 6:50 pm:    SOLD! To some dude who's only purchases on eBay were 1 glock pin and 2 Fender Stratocaster decals, of which one with the '84 serial number E409225 So, if you see a Fender Stratocaster with this serial number, you know it's a fake. Ginger   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 7:43 pm:    Heck, there are TWO other Challengers on the bay right now. Maybe that guy was just a great marketer and his description sold it. I kind of like the white one (second link) but wouldn't pay $2K for it. Ebay Item #220111556241 Ebay Item #220111558079   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 8:51 pm:    Just an fyi...the seller doesn't respond to e-mails and very conveniently doesn't show the backs, sides or detailed neck/fret shots of the guitars. I'm not implying that there's a cover-up, however, I find that sellers with lots of feedback (in this case, 7511!), are typically not very responsive or thorough and some sellers are very clever with photos. (Not that this means that I won't bid on these guitars). mk   Redscuderia Username: Redscuderia Registered: 4-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 9:06 pm:    That Challenger DID belong to MIKE MANIAC (who is a great guy by the way) and thank you for the compliment about being a great marketer. It sold in less then 24 hours and has been paid for. I am happy to say it is staying inside the United States--Perhaps I UNDER valued it??!!   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 9:14 pm:    The white one is the only one with a rosewood fretboard known. It also belonged to Mike Maniac. If you click on the link I posted May 16, 2007 - 8:56 pm, you can read something about it. Typical that several of Mike's guitars start popping up on eBay. And there was an angry member here who didn't get the guitar he had already paid for. Looks like he's in some sort of trouble. Gets me worried... Ginger   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 9:29 pm:    It's in his list. (Captain's log star date March 14, 2004 - 11:08 pm) Ginger, did'nt Spock find the Captain's Log in the Enterprise toilet?   Pitchpocket Username: Pitchpocket Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 9:53 pm:    I've exchanged a few emails with the seller. He's pretty positive about his values, had a laughing success with the Challenger, and is offering other real gems. I told him he was dreaming, but he found a passionate buyer and scored. Might be the sign of thing to come?   Redscuderia Username: Redscuderia Registered: 4-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 10:03 pm:    Ginger, Thanks for the link above. Ive seen and held some of those guitars. Mike also sold me the Telecaster Challenger. Its just amazing--The wood grain is gorgeous. I figured the White and Black ones on Ebay now were Mike's. He showed me them a few weeks ago and the serial numbers looked familiar. Pitch is right--Wait till you see the next two I release.   Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 8:31 am:    The Cherry Burst Custom Agent ? The burgundy Scruggs ?   Johns Username: Johns Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 8:43 am:    The burgundy Scruggs? Huh, what, where? Please don't tell me that Mike sold his mint burgundy Scruggs with blocks!   Redscuderia Username: Redscuderia Registered: 4-2006 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 2:42 pm:    Artist 1500 Artist 1505   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 2:55 pm:    Man, I really like that cream colored Challenger, but I don't think I'll get it now, after reading that it's the only one made with a rosewood fretboard. I have a 1984 Fernandes that's the same color/fretboard, which I love, and would have loved to have a twin for it. Oh well.   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 7:50 pm:    Is a rosewood fretboard bad?? mk   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 7:55 pm:    Look at the pups...two are yellowed and one isn't. Would you say that one or two of the pups are non-original? Ebay Item #220111556241 mk   Ccs Username: Ccs Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 11:34 pm:    Could just be a replaced covers.I'd say it's more like the bridge and neck are non original.I've never seen any that yellowed.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 3:14 am:    MK, I meant, now that it sounds so rare, I won't be able to afford it. I love the rosewood fretboard on that guitar.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 7:19 pm:    Technically it is of course nonsense to pay more for a Challenger than for a Squier JV strat or a Fender Japan E series Strat. They are all Fuji Gen Gakkis. I expect basswood under the white and black paint. The naturals are a different story, but as we could see, the body was not one piece. How important is rarity? When does it justify a really high price? Take the SB70 for instance. How many of those hybrid axes were made? Last week they sold a project SB70 for about $141.- and you can have a good one in a good case for $399.- (BIN). So please don't overestimate these Challenger axes. They don't have the level of an Artist or a Musician. If you like strats, just keep in mind what you would normally pay for a Japanese strat from the Fuji Gen Gakki factory, and add a few hundred max. for the rarity and that's it IMO. If you seriously want to invest amounts of let's say $800-2000 in an Ibanez I'd think about those guitars that were allready expensive when they were new, because they were built in an expensive way, with bindings and MOP and abalone inlays and ebony fretboards, flames and/or burls, carvings etc... So Chucke99, if total Challenger madness breaks out, let this be a comfort: If you'd buy a 1987/1988 white MIJ Fender Stratocaster, you'd have a Fuji Gen guitar with rosewood fretboard too, with closed Gotoh machineheads. There were many whites and blacks then with rosewood fretboards too. Ginger   Ccs Username: Ccs Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 8:03 pm:    The 2575ASH(natural)has a solid figured ash body.The 2575TS(tobacco sunburst)2575WH(white) and 2575BK(black)all have a solid katsura body.They all have one piece maple necks with maple boards. The regular Fender copies had a birch top over a maple body and a laminated maple neck. Challengers,IMO,were probably the best quality Strat copies offered by Ibanez.But like Ginger said they are not of the same quality standard as the Artist,Musician,GB,etc....and should not demand the same prices. Owning both Challengers and Fender Japan Strats I have to say there is no comparison.Neither is really better,just different.They are each their own.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 8:05 pm:    Looks like we've got a ICW winner on the black one, at $452.47 Doctracey is our Doc, owner of a modded Silver Series strat? Ginger   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 9:36 pm:    ok - how he has this guitar listed twice... Ebay Item #220111555531 Ebay Item #220111558079 mk   Ccs Username: Ccs Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 10:31 pm:    Whoops!!   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 10:45 pm:    I just saw the second listing too. Doesn't inspire too much confidence.   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 10:50 pm:    No, and he hasn't responded to any of my questions. mk   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:36 am:    If you look at the other items of the "romansells", you'd say he's running a pawn shop. (Rolexes, antique engagement rings etc.) I've seen his listings before and first thought for a moment it had something to do with Ed Roman Guitars, but the item location didn't fit. Speaking about responding to you questions, Michael: No, a rosewood fretboard is NOT bad, just different. It's even better for people with slippery fingers. And it has one great advantage: it is NOT finished, so if it gets dirty with skin grease, you take of your strings, clean it with 0000 steel wool LENGTHWAYS, oil it put strings on and ready you are. (these instructions were in the FRONTLINE in the '90s). If it ever needs a refret, you won't damage fretboard finish (because there isn't any), so you won't have to refinish it either. The tone (attack, response or whatever you call it) of a rosewood neck strat is slightly different, but I like it. Some don't. Ginger   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:58 am:    FYI, the second listing was pulled. Probably just an oversight. If he uses the eBay publishing tools, it may just have been left in the upload bin by accident.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:16 pm:    Following on to what Ginger was saying about buying "now" what was quality back "then", of the current crop of Ibanez guitars (Artcores, more specifically) are there any that are quality-made, or are they all B-grade? I'm thinking in particular of the AWD83TTRD (the RD stands for RED), which I've seen hanging in a local music store for quite a while. Every time I see it, it calls my name... "Chuck! Chuck! Buy me!"   Johns Username: Johns Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 7:35 am:    Chucke99: Good question, I have some thoughts on it. However, it would be better to start a new thread in the Cool Contemporary section, rather than divert this very specific conversation about totally different era guitars. Thanks, JohnS   Jeffsailor Username: Jeffsailor Registered: 1-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 6:09 pm:    This is really sad... Ebay Item #320117643309 What was the guy thinking???   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 6:23 pm:    well, the other ash challenger sold at that. we will have to see if lightening strikes twice. the black challenger when for around 4oo. and the last i saw the list on the rosewood model it was over 500. and so it begins.   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 6:36 pm:    ooops, my crystal was in the blink. the2575r is at 395.00. that can't be the only one with a rosewood board. it's listed as a production model in 77-78. and the quailty IS as good as an artist. i have both (2617). i can't truely say one is better built than the other. and they are both still logging stage time.   Jeffsailor Username: Jeffsailor Registered: 1-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 9:17 pm:    Tbplayer, Strike twice???? Take a closer look. That's the same guitar. The guy that just bought it is trying to resell it. That's a $500 guitar MAX. js   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 9:13 am:    JS, you're right. i guess he got hinky after getting it. and yeah about $500 is the right amount. good eye man.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 9:44 pm:    He also bought the white one, which went for $611.01 I think that's a good move. I found out the 2375WH is probably one of 24. So it is rarer than the 2409 Eagle bass (74). I did NOT find ANY 25xx model numbers for Fender replicas. Not in catalogues, not in pricelists. The only times I've seen 25xx numbers was in the Argus list (once: 2575) in ICW messages from JD and Harry, but NEVER on their websites and certainly not in a pricelist or catalogue scan. Do these 25xx Fender replicas really exist, or are we parroting a typo JD made in 2004 when he stated a list of Challengers? (just type 2575 in the search box). All model numbers they mention would fit when you read 23xx instead of 25xx. Did I overlook a scan? Ginger   Ccs Username: Ccs Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:50 pm:    I thought about the typo possibility too.It would make sense.But the fact that Michael Wright also stated those 25xx numbers from his own research and data access gives me faith that they are authentic.Plus I think it was just mentioned that the 2575R was mentioned in the Ibanez book.I haven't seen it myself but I'd like to just for the verification.   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 12:54 am:    it's on page 270. it lists it with a sunburst finish, but i've noticed some omissions in the color catagory ie: 2617 in brownburst.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 9:34 am:    IMO, it's dangerous to consider Ibanez The Untold Story as a reliable source. In fact it was built up with second hand information. I've already discovered one error (on page 54) without even reading it. It wouldn't surprise me if this was the second. If you want facts, trust first hand information like catalogues, pricelists and internal READABLE documents. What JD wrote in his ICW message in 2004 contradicts his website. I've seen German pricelists of 1976, 1977 and 1978 and they ALL use the same serial numbers except for the 25 which is a 23 each and every time. Pick any Fender model. If the author used handwritten notes of Ibanez employees as sources, I fear for much more content... because I have seen some handwritten serial numbers on labels that are good for a severe migraine. Ginger   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 2:12 pm:    that is probably true. but then again, i had a brochure for the destroyer and rocket roll sr, that shows a destroyer photo with a pointed "jackson" headstock back in '76. and if only 23 were made from 77-78.. that would give a rarity of the moderne, of which 19 were shipped. and 611.00 is a great buy. great info though. thanks for the heads up   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 3:56 pm:    Correction: I see, I wrote "serial numbers". That should be model numbers or type numbers of course. (This just goes to show how easy mistakes are made). Gingers   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 10:36 pm:    true. but here is the flaw in that. in early '78 i ordered a 2375wh, new , from the only music store in liberty , ky. white strat, maple board, triangle truss cover. if you check the german 1976 scans, you will see the exact catalog picture i saw. what came in was a H77xx silver series. i almost sent it back because it was not the one in the picture. i kept it. i was 18 what did i know? my black challenger is an F77xx. if all fender copies are 23xx model numbers, that means they randomly sent me a silver series. also the 23xx had large headstocks and solid black script logos. challengers are black/gold script. and small headstocks. the ibanez book doesn't list silver series. it does the challengers with the 25xx model listing. see where i'm going? also the price on my silver series was $ 318.66 w/tax. TB   Ccs Username: Ccs Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 12:41 am:    With the Silver and Challenger series both being offered at the same time I seems they would have to have seperate model numbers due to the construction/wood/etc...difference. I never really thought about it before,and maybe it has already been mentioned,but it looks like the original run of Fender copies just switched over to the Silver series,keeping the same model numbers,woods,etc...I've seen them many times in price lists all with the 23xx Someone,somewhere has the paper trail we need to figure this one out for sure.I'm still amazed at how many mysterys have been solved since John started this site.   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 1:16 am:    Ccs. i agree. it seems to me that the challegers came around the time fender started making the small headstocks again. won't swear to that, but i think the time frame is correct.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 10:04 am:    The Challenger Series and Silver Series were NOT offered at the same time. According to Jim Donahue, a member of the Hoshino family ordered to change the name Challenger in to something else, because he didn't want the name to be so provocative. That's why they started the Silver Series in February 1977, and that's why the latest letter combination you will find on the Challengers is CA78xxxx. C stands for Challenger A stands for January 78 stands for 1978. The earliest Silver series you will find are B78xxxx. There was NO need to change the model numbers. And IMO it did NOT happen. All they need was another decal and the stopped using the C in the serial numbers, the models (and IMO also the model numbers) stayed the same. They didn't change model numbers when they changed the headstock of their Gibson replicas. Why should they? It's just confusing. Ginger   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 11:39 am:    explain my '77 silver series   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 12:06 pm:    and my challenger does not have a "c" in the serial number.   Ccs Username: Ccs Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 12:39 pm:    The majority of Silver series I've seen are from '77.And that includes June through December(F-L),during which time Challengers were also made.Someone on here has/had a Dec. 77 built Silver they posted somewhat recently and we also have Dec. 77 built Challengers in the list. Plus I still think that with different construction and materials there had to be a difference in cost/price which would create need for seperate model number.But that part is just my general thought on it all,nothing but my opinion. The C it seems started in July.No June Challengers seem to have it so Tbplayer you must have one of the first off the bench.Is it a F ?And is it a low number sequence that follows?   Pitchpocket Username: Pitchpocket Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 3:07 pm:    My white Challenger is F77xxxx. There is another one posted on this site that is slightly earlier than mine. No C in the serial number either.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 6:36 pm:    That's right: the first Challengers were from June 1977 and were all without the extra C (for Challenger). Then, in July 1977, the started with the first C-serial numbers: CG77xxxx The last were CA78xxxx. Then the C and the name Challenger disappeared because on the highest management level (the Hoshino family) they wanted no further provocation of the giant CBS/FMIC (Fender). As you know Silver comes second, and gold (Fender) comes first. If you call yourself the Challenger, means that you think you're even better than the ruling champion, and that you can beat him. The R&D staff wanted further improvements of the replica's, but they didn't get carte blanche as long as the products were real replicas that COULD lead to a lawsuit by Fender. The next step to avoid that, was changing the Fender replicas in such a way that they got a face of their own: the Roadsters, Blazers and Roadstars (II). If that decision had not been made, Ibanez would perhaps never had made these RG, JEM and Universe rock machines. So the fear for the Fender lawsuit was good for the independent thinking of the R&D department about bolt-on neck solid body guitars. Anyway, Challengers are available with the following serial numbers: -F77xxxx CG77xxxx CH77xxxx CI77xxxx CJ77xxxx CK77xxxx CL77xxxx CA78xxxx and that's it. Ginger   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 8:53 pm:    Ccs, i don't have the piece with me it is in lexington, ky with a friend (he likes it better than his owns strat) i'm in louisville. it is an F77, i know that. when i saw the ones on line with the C prefix i wondered what that was. ginger has cleared that up. thanks. i never really paid attention to the sequence #, only to month and year. but i believe it was below 100. i'll have to call and ask. i do have a question... since it was vehemently stated that the challenger and silver series were not offered at the same time...how can it be explained that my 2 guitars an F77 challenger and my silver series built 3 months later (H77)exist ? and i bought both guitars new. i am the only owner.   Brentm Username: Brentm Registered: 3-2005 Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 11:18 am:    The serial on my Challenger is F770056. Ginger, Ibanez was producing other guitars besides clones during this period.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 5:31 pm:    O.K., so we have a few statements, which can be verified, and which could justify the use of two different model numbers, one starting with 23 and the other with 25 (just like the laminated 2355 and the solid top 2455, which have the same shape but a difference in quality, and according to Harry, the Challenger bodies were made of less pieces of wood, thus of a higher quality than the Silver series). These statements are: "The majority of Silver series I've seen are from '77.And that includes June through December(F-L),during which time Challengers were also made." (Ccs) "how can it be explained that my 2 guitars an F77 challenger and my silver series built 3 months later (H77)exist ? and i bought both guitars new. i am the only owner." (Tbplayer) "CD780103 Sunburst Strat WITH bullet" (Ccs/Messy_mommy1) listed on eBay this weekend, but no pic of the neckplate until now: Ebay Item #220114945800 I have posted a message for Jim Donahue in an old thread, so that it is on top for a while and you all can read it, since Jim is the one who "guessed" that Fritz (Ibanez R&D guy?) was whistled back by a member of the Hoshino family and that this was the reason, that the name Challenger disappeared after a few production months. (Talking about using second hand information: I knew Jim had written this, but didn't carefully reread it and missed the words "I guess") I invited Jim to contribute to the process of truth-finding, because he is one of the few people with first-hand knowledge. I just hope he's got some time for us. I didn't mail him (yet). Ginger   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 12:55 am:    cool. according to the ibanez book. the foundation for the books info is from him. i think that makes the book a reliable information source. i'm interested i reading what he has to say.   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 1:13 am:    i just read your post to mr. donahue, in the old thread. i'm at a loss here. he listed the dates, descriptions, and model numbers of the challenger series (all 25xx) and you're asking if HE made a mistake. wow. can't wait to see his reply. and there was no silver series listed when i ordered mine either. i ordered a 2375wh. they sent me a silver series. as i stated before.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 8:53 am:    Well, I have some clues that give me reason to believe that a repeated typing error could have been made: the 25xx series is not on any pricelist available on the website of Hasy and Harry: Not in the USA in 1976: http://www.break-even.org/ibzspecial/images/kartei /76usa.jpg Not in the Elger USA pricelist 1976: http://www.break-even.org/ibzspecial/images/kartei /price76-2.jpg http://www.break-even.org/ibzspecial/images/kartei /price76-3.jpg Not in Germany in 1977: http://www.break-even.org/ibzspecial/images/kartei /77-1.jpg http://www.break-even.org/ibzspecial/images/kartei /77-3.jpg Not in Germany in 1978: http://www.break-even.org/ibzspecial/images/kartei /78-1.jpg No cases or gig bags for the 25xx series: http://www.break-even.org/ibzspecial/images/kartei /78-2.jpg http://www.break-even.org/ibzspecial/images/kartei /78-16.jpg They just don't SEEM to exist. Does anyone have first hand written sources with 25xx type/model numbers? Ginger   Ccs Username: Ccs Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 9:23 am:    Without going back to double check this,I believe M. Wright said the only time he saw it in writing was in the June 1977 price list. Which,thinking about it now,would make sense because that when they became available. I never realized that before.I guess because we never really had any kind of data collected to base a production run on. And I couldn't believe the timing on this one,I just got a call about setting up a Silver series bass for a trip from here (NY) to L.A..I asked for the serial and it's a L77. They're flying out to shoot a vid and play some promo gigs or something.Pretty cool to be using an old Ibanez.   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 6:02 pm:    according to the ibanez book (to which jim donahue is a major contibutor, check back cover) on page 86, is says the challengers appear in the official january and may 1978 price lists, but nowhere to be found in the august lists. like i stated before : if there is NO difference in model numbers,and both of my guitars are '77 models. then when i ordered mine, then they arbitrarily send me a silver series , whereas it could have just as easily been a challenger. ginger, that is your postion correct?   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 5:38 am:    You mean the H77xxxx? As far as I'm concerned, yes. I think it's all about decals. Of course I read that Harry wrote that for his Challenger body less pieces of wood were used than for his Silver series strat, but that could be coincidental. I think they just glued enough wood together for body size planks and then cut the bodies out. Until now I have NOT seen any pricelist with the 25xx type/model numbers on it. If the 25xx Fender replicas are indeed on them, I'd like to see some scans of the January and May 1978 price lists. The fact that they were mentioned in secondary literature alone, is no proof. In the same book they say that the 2455 is an L-5CES model, although it's an L-4CES. I'm glad that the sources of the information were mentioned in the book, so that we know in which pieces of primary literature we must look to verify this. If we can find them. I think Jim can appreciate a critical look at the book. It can only improve a second edition, because if we don't look critical enough, before you know it, they call it "Ibanez - The unchecked story". And we can't have that, can we? Ginger   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 11:25 am:    well, i look at it like this.. i ordered a 2375wh. they sent me a silver series. jim donahue,the ibanez book, and you yourself saw a 2575 noted in the argus. i think there is enough evidence to show separate models. so, i'll just agree to disagree.   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 11:28 am:    maybe you should write the next edition, of the ibanez book.   Brentm Username: Brentm Registered: 3-2005 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 1:36 pm:    What a long,winding, and hard to follow thread. As for the debate... if the question could be summarized as "Are the Silver Series guitars identical to the Challenger series guitars, aside from the decals?" The answer to that is no. I picked up some silver series parts (pickguard, pickups, bridge, electronics) and they did not fit my Challenger. The two bridges are different, as if they were cast from different vendors or molds (or however they cast them). The electronics had a three way switch. I sold the pickguard and pickups, but kept the electronics and the bridge. The 2375 is a completely different neck. The profile is different (2375=thinner, challenger=baseball bat) and the 2375 also 4 pieces of wood (three running down the neck) with one piece as the fretboard. Aside from Tbplayer's order substitution, it should not be related to the Challenger and Silver Series.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 8:53 pm:    Brent, sorry pal, but that's not a correct summary. It should be "Was there really a 25xx model number range of Fender replicas, or were they in fact carrying the 23xx model numbers, just like the ones with Silver Series decals?" If you compare the 2375 model from 1969 on Hasy's video, you'll find all kinds of differences, but still it has the 2375 model number. It hasn't even got a trem, but it has a truss rod cover for instance. There was a recent e-mail contact between Johns and JD, and this is what Johns posted about it: Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 10:22 am: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ "To All: Jim emailed me and asked me to post this message for him: _____________________________ Everyone: Sorry I have been so busy to get online. I have a new factory in China, so I am always traveling. I am in China now. I apologize that the Ibanez book has many mistakes, I found more probably than anyone. The reason is that I just did not have time to proofread the book before it went to print. So, I actually have a plan to make a list of all the corrections needed for the Ibanez Book. When I return, I will get on the forum and answer questions. As for issues like Challenger, Silver Series, Cimar, there are so many reasons and so many explanations as to why things like this where done. To explain will take some time. I don't claim to know everything, but I researched all the information in Japan, Los Angeles and Hoshino USA for 4 years. One problem I had was that many of my friends, who made these guitars and decisions, have grown old. I ask them and they have no memory of what happened. Also, there is no paper trail to follow, because remember back then there was no Fax Machine, no Email; only Teletype and phone calls. Sometimes there were letters by regular mail. Thanks, and I will be on to straighten out what I can. Jim Donahue President NJG Leader Musical Instruments LTD _____________________________ I suggest that we wait for Jim's further input before any continued speculation. JohnS SysOp" So, now we wait... Ginger   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 10:21 pm:    brent, mine was not a substitution. i ordered a 2375wh. big headstock. black logo. trussrod cover. what i received was a silver series. the crux of this outstanding debate is: 23xx= what became the silver series 25xx= what became the challenger or are they the same model number?   Brentm Username: Brentm Registered: 3-2005 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 10:39 pm:    Thanks Tbplayer. That clears things up. That's what I meant about substitution. It sounded like you ordered a white 2375 and received a Silver Series. So the store (or OEM) substituted one for the other.   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 1:05 am:    it was oem. the store was so small, they didn't have any electric guitars in stock. that's where i bought my first ibanez, a concord e684 "hummingbird" in dec. 1976. with tulip headstock. i did see a 2375sb at a sam ash in sharonville ohio. about 2 months ago. they wanted 499.99 (i did'nt have it) that piece was markedly heavier than my silver series.   Jeffsailor Username: Jeffsailor Registered: 1-2004 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 10:02 am:    Well this one is back and the sad story continues. Ebay Item #220119916906 The buyer of this (when it was first auctioned)was the same guy that dropped 2K on the natural one a few weeks back. Take a look at the feedback he left the seller (I believe he is referencing the seller of the natural Challenger). Considering he tried to resell the 2K Challenger shortly after the purchase, I'm convinced this is a very sad case of buyer's remorse. js   Roadartstar Username: Roadartstar Registered: 8-2004 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 10:25 am:    yah something smells here i would not buy this from this guy something is wrong with it me thinks great detective work   Jeffsailor Username: Jeffsailor Registered: 1-2004 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:00 am:    Road, I'm not sure the seller can be blamed here. I think this is simply a case of an over-enthusiastic buyer that has come to the realization that he made a mistake dropping that kind of cash on that kind of guitar... js   Roadartstar Username: Roadartstar Registered: 8-2004 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:49 am:    TRue true... probably buyers remorse   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 12:01 pm:    absolutely, buyers remorse. or his wife brought up the bobbitt thing.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:15 pm:    Notice the freudian slip in the description: "Great collectible and PAYABLE guitar." Heck, I thought this was a nice guitar the first time it was listed. I can't afford much, but I'm willing to bid on it at these levels.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:31 pm:    And yes, I've read into the feedback with "Richrocks", who bought it the first time. Not sure what to think, though it looks like RomanSells is not at fault here. Is Redscuderia Romansells? He seemed to reply above when I complimented the seller on great marketing.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 7:47 pm:    JCFI or Rescuderia is from "The Garden State, USA", whereever that may be. Romansells is from "Elisabeth, NJ USA". I haven't seen the feedback, but I think the reason for a negative feedback could have been the condition of the white one, such as heavy damage on the back and the edges of the body. NOTE: THERE ARE NO PICTURES OF THE BACK AND THE EDGES OF THE BODY, SO ASK FOR MORE SPECIFIC PICTURES IF YOU ARE INTERESTED! Ginger   Fingersmcoy Username: Fingersmcoy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:23 pm:    This thread is not current look at first posting date lol I guess were are running out of topics.Not that its a crime to respond to old treads   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:32 pm:    I'll ask for more pics of the back. I'm already outbid though. Oh, and "Garden State" is the nickname for New Jersey. So it's the same state.   Butts Username: Butts Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:38 pm:    I put a bid in!! 250. Promptly outbid. Can't fault a guy for trying. Best regards, Brian

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