Help with mystery Flying V

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Author Message Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 7:52 am:    Hi there everyone, For my first ever post here I need some help with a mystery Flying V I've been restoring that is very similar to the pre-78 Ibanez Rocket Roll 2387. When I bought the guitar it was in a really bad state, the pickguard was covered in black fablon and the body in stickers. I've been fixing it up very slowly but am not sure what it is. There was clearly once a full size Flying V truss rod cover fitted originally, but this has been missing all the time I've owned it. The body is made "pancake" style with multi blocked mahogany front and back and a thin layer of maple between and then two layers of mahogany veneer on front and back. The case pictured with it is the original to the best of my knowledge. I'm not sure it is an Ibanez, as it has a neckplate that reads "STEEL ADJUSTABLE NECK, MADE IN JAPAN, 1055720" like some of the old Aria's and those Univox Mosrite copies, the mark of Matsumoko. I have seen several sites that feature very similar guitars by Electra, Burny, Greco and the Rocket Roll, and it looks like they could all basically be the same guitar, any ideas or info? I attach some photographs of the guitar, but the pickups, machineheads and knobs are not original, it came without any. I apologise for the quality, I had to take them with my phone as I haven't got a good digital camera. Any help anyone can give on this would be great. Goat Username: Goat Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:35 am:    I've seen a neckplate like that somewhere before... (racking brain). It may have been on my friend's Aria LP copy, but I'm not sure... I kinda think I've seen that on some old Electra guitars, maybe that was where... maybe somebody here should recognize it! Cool guitar by the way! Bassassin Username: Bassassin Registered: 01-2006 Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 4:48 pm:    Hi Ian - saw your post about this guitar on the Guitar Gallery forum earlier today. I do think the neckplate suggests Matsumoku rather than Fuji Gen,(the factory which built Ibanez) who I don't think used that style of plate. The "serial number" on this sort of neckplate appears to be completely random - I discovered this when I saw a double neck with two of these plates - with completely unrelated numbers. I think it's had the pickups replaced - the two screwholes either side of the top height adjusters would be from 3-screw pups, quite common on Matsumokus. As for whose brand was on it - it's anyone's guess, really. Some amateur detective work leads me to think you're in the UK (your photo hosting!) and it seems several UK importers sourced guitars from Matsumoku - so it could be a Shaftesbury or Eros MkII, for example, or one of the factory brands like Aria. Jon. Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 5:23 pm:    The serial number 1055720 of this guitar doesn't show any relation to the production year/date. This IMO means that it is from before Matsumoku and Arai joined forces (in 1976). IMO it's more likely that it was Shiro Arai Co who built these copies. Shiro Arai was also the first to introduce a Les Paul copy in 1969. On the the website of Hagstrom I found the following info on Shiro Arai: "Meanwhile at the '68 NAMM show Mr. Shiro Arai,Arai and Company (Aria, Aria Diamond, and Arai Diamond brands, plus various importer names), viewed a reissue Gibson Les Paul Custom. He didn’t realise it was still being made, and seeing it was a copy of the original, he had a brilliantly simple idea... ...the Japanese designers soon whipped up their own version with bolt-on neck and deliberate points of difference including blade pickups. These Aria copies appeared in USA in 1969 along with a Merson Univox version. Ibanez followed soon after, and the Les Paul copies took off..." Everytime someone sees a guitar that looks like an old Aria, the first factory name they connect it with is Matsumoku, which is in fact nonsense for guitars from before 1976. Shiro Arai didn't order his Aria guitars at some factory, like Hoshino did at Fuji Gen. He had his own factory for years (since 1956) and joined forces with Matsumoku to increase production capacity in 1976. But the quality made at the Matsumoku factory was so good, that all kind of myths started around this name, as if it were in the same kind of relationship to Aria as Fuji Gen was to Ibanez, which was not true. Ibanez without his contractor companies is nothing but the top brand of the Hoshiho trading company. Aria without Matsumoku is still a the top brand of SHIRO ARAI CO, GUITAR COMPANY WITH HER OWN PRODUCTION FACILITY AND GUITAR BUILDING HISTORY GOING BACK TO 1956. Allright, that being said, there's something odd about the EROS brand you mentioned, Jon. I read that it is mentioned in the Blue Book as a Japanese brand. But did you know that EROS was also a sub brand of EKO guitars in Recanati, Italy? I had a dreadnought of EROS, which I sold some years ago. Recanati was on the label and it had several typical EKO features. I read in a review of a EROS jumbo, that it could be that some luthiers of EKO set up their own EROS company in the sixties after a fire wiped out the EKO factory and that it disappeared when EKO was back at full strength. Well, I don't know. It was a nice cheap guitar to take to the lake in the summer, but now I have my USA Applause AA14-4, which is more interesting and indestructable. (Looks like a boat already). So, the Italians had their part..., now back to the Flying V. I think we need some more amateur detective work there. Also in the direction of Shiro Arai Co, Arai Diamond, Aria and related brands of the pre 1976 era. Ginger Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 5:41 pm:    I have the same neck plate here just took a pic and will upload later. Its from a Ventura 335 bolt on copy from 1973. Serial number is 0098211. Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 9:12 pm:    This is a little blurred but you can see the same stamp in this plate. Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 4:26 am:    Thanks for all the help guys, if we do assume, as looks likely, that this is a pre-Matsumoku Shiro Arai guitar, there is only one candidate model I can find (from http://www.ariaguitars.com/int/00int_main/archives_solbdeg01.html )which is Model No. 1502 (F*V)produced from 74-76 (with a question mark so I presume they're not sure) does anyone have access to the old catalogs? Smakutus Username: Smakutus Registered: 01-2006 Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 8:18 pm:    I have a white Starfield V that is a lot like this guitar. Mine is a bolt on neck with the same type back plate, it came with the "star" backed Gotoh tuners, and the black open but still covered V2(?) Ibanez like pick ups.. Jeff Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 8:19 am:    Just a quick update on this.......I've gone a bit further with my "restoration" project and just thought I'd post a few pics out of sheer pride. Or something anyway. This is probably as far as I'll go for now with it, with Duncans, coil tapping and phase switching (on Push/Pulls). Still don't have a name for the truss rod cover though. Just a quick thought on the identification - the only original pickup when I got it was the neck one which was almost square-ish on top and zebra. it looked like it may have been fully or partially covered, then had the cover removed. Also, the bridge has "LP BRIGE" in caps on the underside if that helps anyone. (?) Anyway, thanks for all the help! Bassassin Username: Bassassin Registered: 01-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 8:09 pm:    Haven't caught up with this thread in a while - Ian, that looks lovely now! Ginger - is that now confirmed that Arai/Aria used their own manufacturing facilities prior to 1976? Everything I've read seemed to suggest it was a mystery who built Arias prior to the Matsumoku partnership. Would it be reasonable to assume that pre 76 off-brands that resemble Aria/Aria Pro were built in Arai-San's factory? I'd guess not - so it just gets more confusing! I had an Eros Mark II LP copy a little while ago, so I did a bit of research about the brand - turns out that the Italian version was E-Ros, with a hyphen. What I read suggested this was a factory which Eko used for production, while their facility was being rebuilt following the fire. I guess it might have been set up by Eko employees. The Eros (without a hyphen) brand was owned by UK distributor Rose-Morris, who were based in Shaftesbury Avenue, in London - just over the road from Picadilly Circus - and its famous statue of Eros! I assume later instruments got the Mark II suffix to distinguish them from the Italian E-Ros. Rose Morris' premium instrument brand was called Shaftesbury, imaginatively enough! Some of these appear identical to specific Aria/Aria Pro II models. Jon. Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 8:55 pm:    Confirmed? No, there haven't been any developments. I haven't seen any of Hasy's neck plates yet. I guess he's very busy earning a living and reorganizing things after his computer crash. One name that pops up every now and then, is the Ventura brand. (Freak owns one). What I know, is that Shiro Arai Co. had its own production facilities and that they needed Matsumoku from 1976 to expand. But I don't know for sure whether they produced all models all by themselves before 1976. Oh yeah, as far as I can remember there was no hyphen on my Italian EROS dreadnought, but the name was in capitals on the headstock. Ginger Bassassin Username: Bassassin Registered: 01-2006 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 6:21 am:    This thread's getting wildly off-topic now! Ginger - there's a good bit of info about E-Ros over at Fetishguitars: http://www.fetishguitars.com/html/italiane/eros/index.html Also, out of interest, an Eros-branded LP copy's appeared on UK Ebay, which I assume is the Rose-Morris brand: Item No 300067047558 Quite a lot of early Rose-Morris Shaftesburys were Italian. I recently saw a beautiful 12-string acoustic at a local flea market, unfortunately the guy wanted way too much money for it! J. Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 6:30 am:    Just a quick note on V's of this type and period from Japan - they all look like they were possibly made at the same place. Of course, there's every reason why '67 V copies would look very similar, but the cherry red ones I have seen around all appear to be almost identical, barring differences in pickups and machineheads. The construction of the 2387 Rocket Roll, the Greco, the Electra and mine are all identical from what I have seen. I recently examined a 2387 at a friend of a friend's and can confirm the exact outward feel and construction, can anyone confirm the cavity routing? (obviously, turning up at someones house and dismantling their guitar isn't enormously popular). I'll stick on a couple of images (including this forums Munch's lovely looking Rocket). Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 8:19 am:    It's me again, warbling on about me old V. Just been searching for info about the ordering of these '67 Vs and came across this post (from a Japanese poster) on the matsumoku.org forum: "In fact, some of early Greco were made by Matsumoku. Kanda Shokai owns Greco brand, and owned Ibanez, Westminster, Epiphone, and etc in early days. In early '70s Kanda Shokai ordered Matsumoku and Fuji Gengakki for Greco and Ibanez brand instruments. In late '70s, most of Greco/Ibanez were produced by Fuji Gengakki, and Westminster and some other minor were produced by Matsumoku. In late '70s, Epiphone were owned by Arai and Nihon Gibson. Also in '79, Ibanez were owned by Hoshino, before Ibanez were owned by Hoshino, Ibanez were export-only brand, so many people misunderstand Greco is domestic brand of Ibanez as both brands were owned by Kanda Shokai. After Hoshino took over Ibanez, Ibanez were also sold in Japan. Most of Japanese instruments companies didn't own their factories, so factories actually produced instruments and companies actually selling those instruments were contract basis relationship. As far as I know, only companies who owned their own factories are Yamaha, Kawai, Tokai, Elk, Kasuga, Fernandes, and Shiina. But again, some of Fernandes/Burny products were produced by Tokai and Kawai factories." Can anyone shed any light or varify this? It would seem to some way to confirming the idea in my last post. Fingersmcoy Username: Fingersmcoy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:15 am:    Here is another Co. that made Gibson flying v clones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Degas_guitars I dont think yours is a El Degas? I think the Els had some kind of logo on headstock. Ccs Username: Ccs Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:28 am:    I've seen a lot of ElDegas LP's over the years. And following on Ianbrailsfords comment,of all the cherry V copys I've seen you wouldn't know the difference if you didn't look at the truss cover logo.Even the pots and harness are the same. Flatbag Username: Flatbag Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 5:47 pm:    Ian, I have a 2387DX (set neck version), the routing is definitely different on mine - whether the routing differed between bolt-ons and setnecks I wouldn't know. The routing in mine has varying depths; deeper under the pickup mounting screws but shallower under the actual pickups, also the channels for the wiring between neck/bridge pickups and between bridge and control cavity are shallower and narrower. Smakutus Username: Smakutus Registered: 01-2006 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 6:42 pm:    Here's my Starfield. My Dad bought me one just like this back in 79 or so. I still have it but it's in parts and half painted. This one was bought on Ebay a few years back: http://home.comcast.net/~smakutus1/StarfieldV.jpg How do you post photos here? Thanks, Jeff Fox Username: Fox Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 8:34 pm:    A little corrigenda.. to this statement. "Kanda Shokai owns Greco brand, and owned Ibanez, Westminster, Epiphone, and etc in early days." Best to my knowledge, Kanda Shokai, one of the largest distributors! in Japan, most certainly did not actually own Ibanez, and related brands, nor Epiphone.. Kanda Shokai got the rights to market Hoshino/Ibanez models in Japan, notably the Iceman first, in 1975 under the brand Greco, model Mirage..FujiGen Gakki (the actual builder) got "a piece of the pie" also, as said in the Ibanez Book. Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 8:34 pm:    I found it: Name of the thread: "just when you thought you know something about Matsumoku" ----------------------------------------- Poster: mfukuyama Virtuoso Joined: 26 Sep 2002 Posts: 106 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posted: Wed 23 Apr 2003 12:48 PM Post subject: In fact, some of early Greco were made by Matsumoku. Kanda Shokai owns Greco brand, and owned Ibanez, Westminster, Epiphone, and etc in early days. In early '70s Kanda Shokai ordered Matsumoku and Fuji Gengakki for Greco and Ibanez brand instruments. In late '70s, most of Greco/Ibanez were produced by Fuji Gengakki, and Westminster and some other minor were produced by Matsumoku. In late '70s, Epiphone were owned by Arai and Nihon Gibson. Also in '79, Ibanez were owned by Hoshino, before Ibanez were owned by Hoshino, Ibanez were export-only brand, so many people misunderstand Greco is domestic brand of Ibanez as both brands were owned by Kanda Shokai. After Hoshino took over Ibanez, Ibanez were also sold in Japan. Most of Japanese instruments companies didn't own their factories, so factories actually produced instruments and companies actually selling those instruments were contract basis relationship. As far as I know, only companies who owned their own factories are Yamaha, Kawai, Tokai, Elk, Kasuga, Fernandes, and Shiina. But again, some of Fernandes/Burny products were produced by Tokai and Kawai factories. ------------------------------------------------ M. f u k u y a m a? from L.A.? I don't know... But here's some information that contradicts the info on www.matsumoku.org too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsumoku It could be true, or not. Wikipedia is not error-free, but it has a self-cleansing principle. As long as nobody contradicts what you wrote, you COULD have written the truth... or not. But it's interesting info. I'll sleep over it and read it again, and again... Ginger Johns Username: Johns Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:46 pm:    Fox is correct and Mr. Fukuyama is in error about Kanda Shokai "owning Ibanez". They did "own Greco" and had exclusive rights to the Iceman design, with the Greco name, in Japan only. I personally spoke with a Hoshino USA representative and he repeated the "official" story presented in "The Untold Story". Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 4:49 am:    Crikey it's confusing (and who says "crikey" these days?)! I suspect that it may be an Aria after all, and there may be a way to tell - if you compare mine to the others, mine has one less scratchplate screw, by the tone knob. Hopefully, if this is not an oversight in production, all I need to do is find out which Matsumoku made cherry Flying V copies had this quirk (if any). The main candidates (ie: ones that I haven't seen)are: Aria 1502 Epiphone 1140 Ventura V-1009 "Fly-a-way" Haven't had any luck finding out anything on these yet, so if anyone can help, I'd be grateful. Thanks again for all the help everyone, nobody has replied to my post on the actual Matsumoku forum yet! I guess Fuji-Gen Men are more helpful.....Or that this is an easier to use forum....hmmm. Flatbag Username: Flatbag Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 5:25 am:    Ian, I also notice yours has a 4 ply scratchplate, with black back. My Ibanez has 3 ply white/black/white. Might be another quirk unique to whichever brand yours is? Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 5:34 am:    As I wrote: "the bridge looks Korean", I meant: looks like an Epiphone Les Paul bridge. And I read Mr Fukuyama wrote that Aria and Epiphone let's say did business together. (Arai never owned Epiphone as far as I know). I doubt that Fukuyama from L.A. is really Japanese. His name sounds to much like an English verb. I read a lot of B.S. in his post. Ginger Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 6:56 am:    Let's discount Mr. Fukuyama for the meantime, I think. Ginger - well spotted, in the second lot of pics that is indeed a Korean Epiphone bridge. I had to replace the original (as seen in the first post)due to having lost the original saddles (a long story - this guitar has been in bits for the best part of 10 years) and being unable to find exact fit replacements. The original bridge has "LP BRIGE MADE IN JAPAN" on the underside, like so: Like I say - it's been in bits for years, I bought in 1996 for £100 with the hard case in the first post and it was covered in stickers and fablon and crap, with a Jackson pickup in the bridge and once I got rid of all that I was proudly showing it off at a gig, let somebody else carry it for me, it fell to the concrete and smashed into bits. Nothing structural as such, broken machineheads, electrics. Very disheartening to a 15 year old with little or no knowledge of repairing guitars. It's easy to forget how different (and difficult) sourcing parts and info was before the web became so huge! Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 7:05 am:    Oh, and I should point out that the bridge in the pic isn't mine - it's just one the same I found on the net, from an Aria Les Paul, not sure what year. So Aria looks more and more likely in a way. Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 9:00 am:    If anyone get s the chance could they have a look at this ebay auction? http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-rare-Gibson-Flying-V-Copy-1970-s-by-Ibanez-Arbiter_W0QQi temZ220066253190QQihZ012QQcategoryZ33043QQcmdZViewItem I think it has probably finished, and that the seller is full of s**t but it might be a lead. I can't look at ebay at work and my home connection is shafted. Damn those pesky IT dept prudes! Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 5:51 am:    Well, I can discount the Epiphone 1140, that was the explorer headstock/single 'bucker model, not a '67 type at all. I can't find a good pic of the Arbiter, which I understand may well just be a rebadged Aria for the UK market anyway. AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!! All this work just to get a name! Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 1:46 pm:    Just seen the ebay sale mentioned above, was relisted and it sold for £330. It is the same as mine, in every respect. Guess it could be the one, as it seems to be a UK rebranding. The seller does claim it's Ibanez built, although I think we've concluded that it's not. I'm not investing in an Arbiter decal though, what's the point, after all. Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 6:19 am:    Just been flicking through my old Guitar magazines and in Guitar Buyer Nov 2006 there is a great interview with Shiro Arai that sets the record straight on a lot of issues. Aria's electric were initially built by Guyatone until 1964, when production was shifted to Matsumoku, who had been building necks and other wooden parts for Aria previously. By the 1980's 5 different construction facilities were in use: 1. Aria Musical Instrument Manufacturing (Nagoya)Co. Ltd - guitars of higher and middle grades (I assume these are Arias Classical range) 2. Aria Musical Instrument Manufacturing (Tatsuno) Co. Ltd - lower priced classical guitars 3. Matsumoku Industrial Ltd. - "Every Aria brand Electric is produced by Matsumoku Industrial" 4. Aria Case Manufacturing Co. Ltd. - hardshell cases 5. Aria Musical String Co. Ltd. - three plants producing a variety of strings. You can check the article at the Guitar Gallery here: http://www.matsumoku.org/ggboard/viewtopic.php?t=3360&highlight=aria Fingersmcoy Username: Fingersmcoy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 7:46 am:    For anyone whos interested- Arbiter guitar is really Teisco guitars that was imported into the UK- they just renamed the guitar form Teisco to Arbiter.Here is some history on Teisco co.http://www.teiscotwangers.com/history.htm Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 8:54 am:    Arbiter guitars in the 60's are different to the 70's. Dallas-Arbiter imported Kawai produced Teisco's in the 60's, then after he left Dallas-Arbiter, Ivor Arbiter set out on his own and the Arbiter guitars from the early to mid 70's are re-badged Matsumokus, mostly Arias. Or so I understand.........You can never be too sure after all can you? Fingersmcoy Username: Fingersmcoy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 10:04 am:    Did you check out the link? I think most of the history on Teisco is there Ianbrailsford Username: Ianbrailsford Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 11:25 am:    Yeah I did, and very interesting it is too. I mistakenly referred to Kawai producing them - that didn't occur until '67, and Dallas-Arbiter did indeed import them under the Arbiter name - until 1966, when Rose-Morris took over UK import and distribution, labelling them as Top Twenty. The ol' V, on the other hand is almost certainly Matsumoku, and would most likely be a re-badged Aria from the 70's. I also think, in response to Ginger's post on the "Hendrix" 2387DX thread that the ebay auction above features a genuine guitar in original condition - why on earth would you re-badge or fake an almost obscure brand like Arbiter, no you'd decal her up with Greco or Ibanez or Tokai, one of the big so-called "Lawsuit" brands that get e-butt purchasers frothing at the mouth. Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 5:35 pm:    Did you take a look at the bridge of the black Ibanez LP copy with P90's? I think it the same as yours. I wasn't suggesting that either of them has been re-badged. I just think the truss rod covers come from the same factory. BTW: Arbiter was very important in the UK and Holland. They were the official distributor of Fender in both, England and Holland (Apeldoorn) for years. Not what I would call an obscure brand. Ginger Fingersmcoy Username: Fingersmcoy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 8:19 pm:    Just an observation- No matter what brand of guitar you have there it appears to be top quality.If anyone has any doubts- look at the routing job.The pic. where you removed the pickups WOW!Better craftmanship than ive seen on some guitars made today.Nice guitar, have fun- Cheers!!

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