Ibanez or Greco(Ibanez name in Japan)...

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Author Message Tony K. Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    I just got a Greco Firebird copy that seems more accurate to original 'Birds than My 2 Gibson Reissues! I was told By Michael Wright(Guitar Stories Vol.1) & others that Greco is Ibanez' name in Japan. Are Ibanez copies as good? All the ones I've seen are Bolt-on & My Greco is set-neck,slimmer neck like orig. & has lower output pickups like orig.,NOT hi-output like RI's. Any comments or info? Thanks-Tony K. richmansueto Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    I also have an Ibanez reverse firebird with a set neck ,banjo tuners and is identical to a gibson firebird 5 with vibrola. It is only the 2nd I have seen like it and never have seen it documented. Does anyone have any info on this guitar? John Shanley (Johns) Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Tony: Here's an ad I ran across for another Greco guitar: Quote: Greco LP Custom,Ibanez Japan,Glue Neck Note the Glue neck. I have been told that all Ibanez copies of LPs were boltnecks. Looks like Grecos had some different features. JohnS Harold Wherry Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    I have seen several Ibanez Set-neck Les Paul copies besides the one I own. Ibanez made very nice copies with set & bolt on Necks. Harold John Shanley (Johns) Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Harold: Thanks for confirming that some LP copies have had sets. The Alnico5 site states that, too. Any opinions on whether the set neck makes a difference in playability, reliabilty or tone? JohnS Dave Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Set necks are definitely superior to bolt-ons in terms of tone and sustain. They also aid playability, in that the "heel" where the neck joins the body allows better excess to the highest frets. Regarding the quality of the Ibanez copies, I own both a "vee" and "explorer" bass copies, which I consider to be far superior to the Gibson "re-issues" of same. Gibson never made basses in these styles until the "reissues" of the 80's and 90's, so these '76/'77 Ibanez models are really the best possible. The fit and finish is nearly flawless. In addition, they use Fender-style P/J pickups which are superior to the Gibson Humbuckers used until recently. Challenger Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    I recently acquired my second Ibanez Challenger('77 strat copy). In my opinion, these were better than Fenders of the same year. I can email a pic if you would like to see this guitar. jm JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Here's a picture of the '77 Challenger. Challenger Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    John, Thanks for the picture post. As you can see this guitar's truss rod adjuster is at the body end of the neck. It is one piece of hard rock maple with a skunk stripe of rosewood down the back. It is NOT one of the 'Silver Series' strat copies. Ibanez improved on the strat with this one. It has a mahogany body(A Japanese guy at the Hoshino facility told me) and sealed Gotoh tuners. I have seen three in twenty years. I own two. John Shanley (Johns) Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Challenger: Did you mean to say that the truss rod adjuster is at the "headstock" end of the neck? Mahogany bodied strat? That's not the norm. Usually alder, ash or basswood. But I love mahogany, so I bet it's a great guitar. I hear Fender guys quibble over pick ups all the time. And they're always saying "lousy pickups" when they're asked to evaluate replicas. Was wondering if you've had the chance to compare real Fenders (whatever that may be) to the ones Ibanez used in your Challengers? Do you think that pick up replacement is just a forgone conclusion if you're striving to reach for thesound of a real Fender? JohnS Challenger Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    There is a rosewood plug at the headstock and the adjuster is under the pickguard. These pickups are really good. The trem is as good as any well set-up strat. I've played plenty of '70s strats. All the ones that can be bought are shitty, and dealers, etc. want upwards of $800 for them. This guitar is loosely patterned after a '57 strat. It's really solid. I also have a Fender '62 reissue strat, and although they are really two different animals, I must say that the Challenger really holds its own quite nicely. Challenger Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    As for the comparison to Fender pickups, I don't think Fender has made a decent pickup since pre-CBS days, so an upgrade in pickups would no doubt be beneficial to strats and their copies. My choice for replacement? Lindy Fralin hot vintage with the reverse wound middle for hum-cancelling at positions 2 and 4. twobad Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    What is an Ibanez Firebird worth ? I had a bolt on a few years ago and I noticed the neck could be pulled out of tune very easily. Harry Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Hello Twobad! It's been a long time ago you put this message down, and maybe my tribute is no longer useful but also for all other Ibanez-freaks: I just bought a real beautiful Ibanez Firebird copy. All original and almost complete, it only misses the tremelo arm. It has no serial number, so it's a pre-75 one. Bolt on neck and a nice tobacco sunburst colour. I just fell in love with it. The original price was $550, but eventualy I payed $450. Still too expensive? Too cheap? I thought this price was reasonable. greetings, Harry. Mark Munchenberg Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Harry, I have a 1975 model Ibanez Firebird. it has a bolt on neck and mine is also missing the vibrato handle. I picked mine up about 8 months ago for $320 Aussie dollars. Thats $165 US!!!! Its in good condition but not mint. It has some chips in the finish around the edges. Prices for Ibanez in Australia have been low due to a lack of recognition of the inherent quality of their products. Over the past two years this has changed, particularly in larger cities such as Sydney and Melbourne. Demand in those markets has increased substantially pushing prices upto US levels. Here in Perth, the market has been slow to catch on, but I've noticed an upward trend in prices over the last 12 months. I estimated that old Ibanez guitars have appreciated here in Perth by about 50% in the last year. Anyway, getting back to the firebird, I've found that it sounds like a meaty telecaster. A real single coil tonality but with much more bottom end and sustain. It's a very versatile guitar which can even get close to the sound of a Gretsch!!! My Firebird has a Seymour Duncan mini humbucker in the bridge position. Its incredibly twangy. The original pickup is in the case. The frets are low and flat. There is not enough height to recrown them. I am tossing up whether or not to have it refretted. Here's a picture: Regards, Mark Harold Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Guys, Here is a picture of a 1970's GRECO/Ibanez Les Paul Custom Black Beauty copy with Set-Neck! Harold Harold Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Guys, Here is a picture of a 1970's GRECO/Ibanez Flying Vee copy with Set-Neck! Harold Harold Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Guys, CORRECTION: The GRECO/Ibanez "Flying Vee" copy with Set-Neck, (Korina copy), was made in 1980! ...(See above picture). Harold JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    Harold: So you're saying that Ibanez/Greco continued to make copies even after the lawsuit in '77? If so, was this just in the Japanese market? Harold Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:    John, I do believe GRECO / IBANEZ continued to make Lawsuit models after the '77 Lawsuit. Greco "Flying VEE" serial #D80xxxx. Greco L200S "Gibson L5CES" serial #I78xxxx. Harold Bob Yerkovich Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 1:13 am:    I've got a couple of questions I hope someone out there can help me out with. When Ibanez and Greco did the Firebird (or Firebrand) in the mid-'70s, how close a reproduction did they do? Did they actually do the 9 piece neck-through bodies like Gibson did? Would anybody by chance know the patent numbers on the Ibanez Firebird pickups? Was the guitar serial number impressed in the wood underneath the bridge pickup? I'm asking because I bought a guitar on E-bay from someone claiming it was a '65 Gibson Firebird. I have not as of yet found any parts linking it to Gibson (headstock was redone and serial number is in tiny numbers and not authentic). I know Ibanez was doing incredible recreations in the mid-'70s and I am wondering if this guitar could be one of them. I would appreciate any help you can give me on this. My e-mail is bob2000adr@cs.com Thanks very much. Bob Mark Munchenberg Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 7:57 pm:    Bob, The only Ibanez Firebrands I have seen all feature bolt-on necks. This is not to say that a set neck version was never produced though. The first two posts in this thread mention that Greco models (a Japanese brand belonging to Ibanez) featured set necks with banjo tuners. I doubt that Ibanez would do the 9 laminate neck through construction though - but I could be wrong. As the earlier messages state - reliable info is hard to find. I can have a look at the numbers on my pickups and post them here later for you. Regards, Mark chris s (Ccs) Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 5:15 pm:    From 1974 spec sheet Length: 44" Width: 19 1/2 x 13 1/2" Pick ups: Humbucking Fingerboard:Rosewood Markers: Pearloid Neck: Bolt on Machine heads:Chrome,Smoothtuners Finish: Mahagany Michael Wright Posted on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 8:31 am:    To correct myself, Greco was NOT an Ibanez brand name in Japan. First of all, the company was Hoshino Gakki Ten. Their own primary brand name was Ibanez, however, they would put any brand a buyer wanted on their guitars. In 1955 Hoshino stopped selling guitars in Japan, concentrating on exports. They made their own electric guitars from 1962-1965; due to high labor costs they switched back to OEM vendors in 1966. In 1970 they began working with the Fuji-Gen Gakki factory, with whom they worked thereafter. Fuji-Gen made guitars for sale in Japan carrying the GRECO brand name. This belonged to Fuji-Gen and had nothing to do with Hoshino/Ibanez, except, of course, they were the same guitars as those made for Hoshino. Hoshino Hanbai was established in 1981 to again sell guitars in Japan. So, from 1955-1981, no Hoshino guitars were sold in Japan. Greco guitars were the brand of Fuji-Gen Gakki, Hoshino's main supplier but not owned by Hoshino. Michael Wright The Different Strummer Mark Munchenberg (Munch) Posted on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 9:39 pm:    Michael, Thanks for the info. It certainly helps to clear up some confusion about the dim dark days. Have you ever seen any set neck Firebrands yourself?? Regards, Mark Blues (Blues) Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 5:08 pm:    Guys, Here is a picture of a very nice Lawsuit model 1970's LES PAUL CUSTOM copy made by GRECO. This Les Paul copy has a Set-Neck!!! Blues Blues (Blues) Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 5:11 pm:    CONTINUED FROM ABOVE..... GRECO Les Paul Custom copy! Blues Blues (Blues) Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 5:15 pm:    Guys, Here are a few pictures of a remarkable LES PAUL STANDARD copy made in Japan by TOKAI. Blues Johns (Johns) Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 10:39 am:    Harold: Scrumptious! Are these your's? If so, how do they compare and play? Malicesg (Malicesg) Posted on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 12:14 pm:    Hey, I met a guy who own an old Greco Les Paul (set-neck) with heritage cherry sunburst (maple top) and a 2 piece mahogany. Stock hardware, Plays incredible and feel so good. I can't believe it. COndition? 8/10. How much it worth you think? It even has the original case, original japanese store receipt in Yen, user's manual and old Greco catalog... Harry (Harry) Posted on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 3:00 am:    Malicesq! I can't tell you the exact value of this Greco, since I have no experience with Greco over here in Holland. But to give you some clue: over here in Europe similar set neck sunburst Ibanez Les Pauls have a value in the range of $600 - $800 US, depending on condition and originality. Question: I would be very happy if you could send me scans of the Greco catalogue; would that be possible? Greetings, Harry Blues (Blues) Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 10:58 pm:    Guys, Here are a few pictures of another remarkable guitar. 1962 ES335 replica made in Japan by TOKAI. BLUES Blues (Blues) Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 11:06 pm:    Guys, Here are a few pictures of another remarkable guitar. 1962 ES335 replica made in Japan by TOKAI. BLUES Blues (Blues) Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 11:16 pm:    CONTINUED FROM ABOVE... BLUES Blues (Blues) Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 2:58 am:    CONTINUED FROM ABOVE - TOKAI BLUES Munch (Munch) Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 7:04 am:    Harold, I thought '62 335s had the small square fret markers, not the dots. Am I wrong? Thanks, Mark Blues (Blues) Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:24 pm:    Mark, I believe you are correct the '62 ES335 does have Small Block Fret Markers. So this Tokai is a copy of a 1958 - 1960-ish Gibson ES335 with long pickguard, and baseball bat neck. Very Nice Guitar! Easy to play! BLUES Blues (Blues) Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:40 pm:    Mark, I believe you are correct the '62 ES335 does have Small Block Fret Markers. So this Tokai is a copy of a 1958 - 1960-ish Gibson ES335 with long pickguard, and baseball bat neck. Very Nice Guitar! Easy to play! BLUES Munch (Munch) Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 7:53 am:    Harold, That's right. Gibson didn't bring cherry in on the 335's until 1960/61. I remember this because in Back The Future, Marty is seen playing a cherry ES345 with Bigsby in what was supposed to be 1955. Guitar hounds like me are always looking for slips like this in movies. ES3XX guitars weren't introduced until 1958. Interestingly though, Marty can be seen in 1985 with a black Ibanez RoadstarII which is period correct. Cheers, Mark Johns (Johns) Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 9:25 am:    Munch: I guess they were trying to reinforce the "Chuck Berry was inspired by this" joke, by visually connecting the lead style, chicken walk AND signature guitar...even though the guitar would not have existed in that year. (I wonder if any body on the staff even knew/cared about the issue with using a 335?) So, for us time traveler who are realists , that begs the question: "What would Chuck or Marty have been playing in '55?" An ES175? Munch (Munch) Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 7:15 am:    John, Chuck was well known for playing an ES350T, which was a single cutaway thin hollow body with a short scale length. He can also be seen in photos with an early alnico Les Paul Custom. Cheers, Mark Hansegil (Hansegil) Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 10:39 am:    If someone has info on Greco guitars, I would be happy! I own a small amount of japanese guitars, and one of them is a Greco 3 pick up Pete Frampton model. I bought it from a guy in japan for 35 000 yen. That would be something like $350 inkluding shipping to Norway. Thats cheap for such high quality! ( set neck, of course!) Actually it kick my friends mid 70`s les paul custom`s ass!! L6sguy (L6sguy) Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 12:50 pm:    http://vintageibanez.tripod.com/greco.html Karl (Karl) Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 12:37 pm:    i resently got a parted out greco rev. firebird 5.the vibro was replaced w/ a stop bridge,but the tail plate was also removed.does anyone know were i can get the engraved tail piece.it looks bad w/ all the holes showing.gibson won't sell me one unless i have proof it's for a gibson. Munch (Munch) Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 4:33 pm:    Karl, I would give John Sprung at Parts is Parts a try. He seems to supply lots of parts that are unusual. His web address is: www.guitar-parts.com Cheers, Mark Karl (Karl) Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 8:00 pm:    thanks mark Karl (Karl) Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 11:37 am:    little more on the firebird.to whom it my consern.i was told it was a greco.they never did tell me how they came to that conclusion.they did say it had only the body/neck,tunes,&bridge org. on it.stop tail,pickgaurd,p-ups,jacks,wiring,nut,ect were after market.so i don't now exactly how one would tell.ANYBODY KNOW??????unlike the others have said,mine is neck through w/ a HUGE neck (baseball bat).nickle tuners (one was broken,assholes)they told me the p-ups were bought from allpart how inturn told them they a purchased from a japanese dealer.sence the wiring was done wrong(again,assholes-we'll leave "them" unnamed)& the broken peg i not able to comment on the output or sound. any info on I.D.ing this axe would be helpful thanks Munch (Munch) Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 8:43 pm:    Hi Karl, Can you post some photos of your guitar?? We should then be in a better position to comment on its pedigree. If you like, I can post some photos of my guitar to help you in the restoration. Bear in mind though that my guitar is a bolt neck Ibanez. Cheers, Mark Laaz (Laaz) Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 8:54 pm:    I saw a killer Greco firebird for sale recently, let me check my history & see if I can find it. Laaz (Laaz) Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 8:56 pm:    Ok here it is, its a 1978 model. http://www.guitargai.com/html_folder/gai_otherBA2.html# Johns (Johns) Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 9:27 am:    Laaz: That's the cleanest Firebird replica I've seen. I can't say that I've ever seen an Ibanez Firebird setneck. Check out the rest of this guy's stock. He's got really nice stuff! The FA700, FA95 and SA900 are so Ibanez. Even his Orville by Gibson line seem very nice. Anybody know anything about them? Karl (Karl) Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 1:08 pm:    much and others thanks for the reply i was begining to feel i wasn't in the loop out here.munch it would be great to see your bird as well i would be happy to post mine although i don't know how. i do have a good camera.i will say again that mine is neck thru not a set neck like a paul.i have a deal set on tuners (not nickel)but the right kind for $50 is that too much?and i will probable just put a gibson tresrod cover & plank tail peice on it.unless someone knows where i can get a carved greco one.gisons are too much.the vibro itself realy doesn't intrest me.munch,jon sprung did have those plank for $150 thanks.I also have a starfeild l4(175ish)that i can't get any info on.worth/collectabilty ect.ANYONE!?! Fox (Fox) Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 1:29 pm:    Hi Johns! About Orvilles I quote Tony Bacon: The forename of the founder of the American company was used by Gibson on a range of Japanese-made guitars, launched in 1988, which officially copy Gibson´s most famous designs...While the cheaper models carry only the Orville logo, the higher-priced versions are branded Orville by Gibson. The latter range bears the "Les Paul" logo when apprpriate, and models include the Custom, Standard and Junior equipped withh US-made Gibson pickups. These high-quality accurate repros are sold only on the Japanese market.... Hope this will "shine a light" on Orvilles.. fox Karl (Karl) Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 3:18 pm:    Here's the pics..... Karl (Karl) Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 3:31 pm:    Sorry, HERE are the pics! Munch (Munch) Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 2:53 am:    Karl, $50 sounds good for a set of tuners to me. What exactly do you mean by a "plank" tailpiece?? It is very cool to hear that your guitar is a neck through design. Can you post more photos of the neck meeting the body? It is a bit hard to see exactly how its done. Here's a pic of my guitar. Cheers, Mark Karl (Karl) Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 9:21 am:    mark i mean the tail peice is not engraved(plank) i'll try to get more pics this afternoon Karl (Karl) Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 9:53 am:    mark ,i don't know if i can get a beeter pic then that.let me see if i can explain the photo.the neck & the center peice of the body that holds the p-ups, bridge, ect. is all one piece of wood.there is no meeting place to see.its carved from one block of wood.the "wings" w/ the vol. pots & pic gaurd onit & opposite side are then glued on.i do have a program i used to sharpen up some dark pics of pedals that worked realy well.let me see if that will help the heel shot. image(fireheel) Blues Username: Blues Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 8:03 pm:    GUYS, Here is a link to a beautiful TOKAI- REBORN ES150 / GIBSON ES335 copy. http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-1751-2978-71/1?AID=5463217&PID=1802666&mpre=http%3A//cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D280045882621 My Tokai ES150 is exactly like this one. The quality and tone are exceptional! BLUES Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 10:45 am:    Hi Blues. I had one of these in blonde. Sold it before my move to Oz. Great guitar as you say. That was a 81' model too. Far superior to the 335 replicas Tokai churn out these days. Also had a LS80 Reborn that was a corker too. Wish I could have brought all the axes with me to Oz but sacrifices had to be made. six

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