What do we call them? Nameless guitars

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Author Message Zoner (Zoner) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:41 pm:    I have seen a number of guitars that are obviously made in the "Ibanez" factory that have nothing on the headstock. I own a set-neck Flying V and just bought a wierd Les Paul/L5S hybrid that have nothing as far as a name is concerned so I am wondering - what do we call them? Did Ibanez ever actually sell guitars with no name on them? Is my "V" an Ibanez? Acetan (Acetan) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:52 pm:    How about "Nobanez"? Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:09 pm:    This topic is getting to be a repetitious pain in the ass. "Obviously" made in the Ibanez factory? How can that be obvious? Does it say "made by Fuji Gen Gakki"? Or, "made in the Ibanez factory"? Why does it have to be an Ibanez? Why not Greco, or MANN, or Antoria, or any of the other brands associated with Hoshino? There is no "Ibanez" factory. Never has been. All production has been done by contracted third party manufacturers. And there have been several over the years. As far as I'm concerned, If it doesn't have an Ibanez logo, it's not an Ibanez. It's just another no-name imported guitar. Anybody could have contracted Fuji Gen Gakki (or any of the other factories) to build any guitar to any specs with any name on it. Even if it was built to the same specs an an Ibanez/Greco/MANN etc, it's still not an Ibanez/Greco/MANN etc. Acetan (Acetan) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:44 pm:    Easy does it. This does not have to be a pain in the a$$. ..."Even if it was built to the same specs an an Ibanez/Greco/MANN etc, it's still not an Ibanez/Greco/MANN etc." Totally agree, that's why I call it something different: "Nobenez". LOL. Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:53 pm:    Ya missed my point. A no-name Strat is NEVER considered to be a Fender. Why should it be any different with Ibanez or any other brand? Why not "Nogreco"? Munch (Munch) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 5:37 pm:    Hi Steve, I agree with you. The Gretsch guitars from 1989 to today all come from Terada, the factory that built the Ibanez semi's in the golden era. Does that mean the Gretsches are really Ibanez? I don't think so. Having said that, I think you came off sounding a bit on the rude side with your opening remark. Remember, not everyone who posts here has the "time in" with Ibanez like your good self and other sages on this site. Let's be a bit more patient and welcoming of new members! Cheers, Mark Fox (Fox) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 6:11 pm:    Fellow Ibanezers! The "mystery" in far-east made guitars is, what factories built what guitars and for whom.. Hoshino group had some factories in Japan and later a couple extremely great assembly unit/factories in Korea, to put up the Ibanez-brand (and a great number of other related brand)guitars, BUT in the same time built guitars for other groups/companies as well. Sigma for Martin, Squier for Fender and Epiphone/Orville for Gibson. Factories (as far as I know) in Japan were Terada, Iida and Fuji Gen. Korean-made Ibanezes came from Cort and Samick, the latter being a huge manufacturer, providing guitars for a growing number of companies.. And today, the construction is spreading to Indonesia, India and most of all to China... So it will be much more difficult to tell which factory has made the particulr guitar.. What I´m trying to stutter here is, that maybe it would be easier to speak ´bout Ib** Factory, although it is not correct.. Being a great fan of Internet-gathered tables, a little off-topic one here: Factories behind Epiphone.. DW = DaeWon (China) EA = Gibson/QuingDao (China) EE = Gibson/QuingDao (China) I = Saein (Korea) MC = Muse (China) R = Peerless (Korea) S = Samick (Korea) SJ = SaeJung (China) U = Unsung (Korea) and B stands for Bohêmia Musico-Delicia (Czech Republic) Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 7:10 pm:    Ya'll sure are a sensitive bunch sometimes. Zoner ain't a newbie, there's a keyword search that works pretty good, and I didn't aim those remarks at anybody in particular. I didn't even use any 4-letter words! Besides, I AM a rude SOB. So, there! *grins* Acetan (Acetan) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 7:40 pm:    I don't think your remark was rude, I think we've known each other too well. I just thought whatever one likes to call his guitar is really no big deal. I said Nobenez because I like Ibanez and someone who prefers Greco may very well call them NoGreco indeed. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of Squire owners are calling their guitars Fenders. This is all fun stuff, I don't see anyone here behaving like some Gibson owners who can't stand to hear the word Heritage. As old Willie used to say,"...a rose by any other name, blah, blah, blah..." Zoner (Zoner) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 8:15 pm:    Wow, sorry to be a pain Mr Roadstar. I'm not a newbie, you're right there, but what would you suggest I input into a keyword search, "nothing"? I am aware that Ibanez never made guitars themselves, hence the quotations around the word Ibanez, although one could argue the USA Custom guitars were made by Ibanez. If this is redundant, I apologize. As far as there being obvious clues to the factory of origin, I think most of us who have been looking at these things for awhile can tell the difference between a Fuji guitar and a Matsu guitar, and most of the others are sufficiently different to rule them out as Fuji built, so I think many pieces I see are in fact "obviously" made in the Fuji factory without being labeled as such. Besides, no one other than Acetan answered my original question. What do we refer to these pieces as? "No-Name"? "Anonymous"? "Blankety-Blanks"? Didn't Ibanez publish catalogs with non-labeled guitars in the pics during the mid 70's? Peace. Z Tonedef (Tonedef) Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:02 pm:    Well Mr. Roadstar--you did use "Fuji" a couple of times..... It's about time someone kicked this board into hyper-drive, it's been quiet all week. Tonedef Spiro (Spiro) Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 4:15 am:    MY TURN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The guitars in question I would have to call IMPORTS.. These were imported by many a distributor and were labeled whatever the importer wanted them labelled.. For instance, I have been looking at importing guitars into Australia from China (My first thought was importing the neck and body and then finishing them here way before the Artcore United series was released) The company asked for the name and artwork to put on the headstock and it would be as easy as that! I pick from a generic catalog what I want or if I want a special guitar they would make tham at an extra cost. So.... what would you call these guitars? imports! made from company called chiun wau in china! This happens with many an instrument ... Take for instance the Jason Brand used in Australia.. It was used on drum kits (Pearl drum Factory), guitars xylophones violins and so on.. Jason was the brand chosen by a distributor in Australia! Another distributor (who I used to work for) imported the same drum kit from the same factory and called them Pearl! Who bummed out? Same with the companies who imported brands like Axiom Electa and so on, they picked their own fate... So Unless the guy has a receipt saying that the guitar was bought from the Elger Company I would have to call it a cheap import! Get it? Got it? Good! Spiro (Spiro) Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 4:19 am:    Hey great info Fox.. I'll tell ya those Chinese made Epiphones are far better than the samick ones.. (Epiphone has stopped using factoories in Korea and moved it all to china) Johns (Johns) Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 11:43 am:    So, there are a couple of sticky points within this discussion. 1. There may well be other brand name imports that were made by the same factory, and even to the same specs, as the Ibanez labeled guitars. This fact does not make them Ibanezes. And therefore they also don't have the value, either. Why? The name Ibanez is inextricably connected to "the Norlin lawsuit" and has a unique place in history, thus a higher premium, regardless of construction quality or playability. This should make people who own Antoria, CSL, Mann, etc. happy. They can have virtually the same quality guitar for less. 2. There are definitely Ibanez catalog pictures that show no names on the headstock (Oldies Series HG-52). Has it been determined whether this was an "advertising only" situation (to stay under the lawsuit radar perhaps?) or that someone actually remembers taking possession of an "Ibanez" with no name on it? If there really were replicas (with bookend headstocks) that had no Ibanez name, that would mean that they would be nearly impossible to identify. So, the dilemna...is it an "other brand" or an Ibanez? Acetan (Acetan) Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 1:16 pm:    These grey and hazy issues are what make Ibanez interesting to collectors, devotees, owners, etc. If everything is cut-and-dried and cast in stone, we might as well collect stock certificates. Don't you think? Padraic (Padraic) Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 1:43 pm:    Yes, a VERY interesting discussion. I can remember these guitars being sold in the 70s; Ibanez were definately 'top of the heap' in the copy world in the UK (pricewise and qualitywise too). I have Ibanez and Antoria guitars; construction-wise they are the same, no doubts. Parts are interchangeable and have the same stamps on them (bridges for example, and tuners). Other posters here have noted this before. Can't argue with the point Johns makes about the 'Ibanez premium' either; he's right. He's also right about the lesser price, but similar quality, for other 'related' brands (hope I got away with that!). So, here's a little bit of fun. Ibanez or not? No, it's not. It's an Antoria. BUT the quality is the same. Zoner, enjoy your 'hybrid'; I suspect very few others have one! Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 3:03 pm:    Zoner, Don't take things so personal. Sorry if I offended you, but I said the TOPIC was getting to be a pain in the ass, not you. Everybody, Tonedef does have a point. This place gets like an old folks home sometimes! As for the USA built models. They were produced under contract by a custom guitar shop in California. Same setup Hoshino used with Fuji and Samick and Cort. Somebody here knows the name of that outfit, I sure. You know, the one in Hollwood? One of the on-going arguments for the no-name Ibanez guitars is that damned catalog from the 70's. If you look close at the photos, you can see evidence of the logos being masked out on the negatives. Why was this done? I dunno. However, that single catalog does not in any way lead me to believe that Hoshino intentionally had guitars built without the logo. Perhaps this whole topic belongs in JD's realm. Zoner (Zoner) Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 3:45 pm:    Mr. Roadstar, no offense taken here, really. My big internal question is this - you walk into your local music shack in say, 1974, and the salesperson strolls over and says "hey, I just got in this new shipment of Les Paul copies, they are pretty nice and look at the price!" He then shows a guitar that has no name on it at all, so what does he call them? How does a retailer market a nameless product? It is just hard for me to understand how they came to have no name at all and make it into the market. I totally get the whole "many different names for many distributors" thing, but it just amazes me that guitars were actually sold with no indication of a brand anywhere. I would never call my "no-name" guitars Ibanez', although I still have some question about my "V" since it seems to me the name appeared on the tuss rod cover, but mine looks to be a standard "bell" type with no name. "Nobanez" I guess? Hasy (Hasy) Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 5:56 pm:    Hi For example: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3751851710&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT This one is a "no name" Ibanez made Gretsch Gentleman Copie of 67/68. No Decal on the headstock, only a sticker of the dealer (homemade) is mounted . This one is real Ibanez made. Some with Metal Logo, some with no Logo, some with Ventura Logo, some with homemade Logo. Who care`s ? For me, with or without it, its not important. Hasy Meranti (Meranti) Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 11:55 pm:    I have a question. We all know many brands come out of the same factory as ibanez and bearing similar serial number formats. The question is does Ibanez maintain their own exclusive serial numbers or that the serial numbers is maintained by the factory meaning there will be only one F77xxxx or Greco, Ibanez, CSL and others will have the same F77xxx number? Regards, Meranti Johns (Johns) Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 7:54 am:    Meranti: Good question. Craigjc (Craigjc) Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 8:01 am:    Another good question....If we pleadge allegiance to a factory regardless of the name on the headstock, then we'd probably pick the Hoshino factory. This would imply that we should all go out and buy new Epiphone Elite series guitars. Acetan (Acetan) Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 11:57 am:    ...and dump the AM300's and AM400's from the Terada factory? I think the factory of manufacture is only part of the story. The built quality and design of the instruments are just as important if not more so. That's why we are interested in "no-name" or "other brand" guitars by Hoshino built to as high standards and with similar features as Ibanez models. The ones I would call "Nobanez"s. Boy, I'm liking this name more and more. Ibnzplyr (Ibnzplyr) Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 2:44 am:    For all those guitars on EBAY advertised as Ibanezes until you read the fine print, I hereby dub them all "L i e b a n e z" guitars. Scott Ibanezfreak1960 (Ibanezfreak1960) Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 5:48 am:    How about the plain old "John Doebanez" Craigjc (Craigjc) Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 7:19 am:    For the really misleading ads...Slybanez? Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 6:17 pm:    Here's one in Melbourne. http://www.qksrv.net/click-1802666-10381315?loc=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D7382937612 six Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 12:19 am:    Interesting that the seller states that due to the headstock inlay, this is a pre serial number model, just the opposite is true of the Ibanez models where the "Urn" type HS inlay indicates the older (pre serial number) models, not the later "bug " type inlay..all in all its a very cool guit, if it wasn't so far away, i'd take a swipe at it-the US dollar is even at an advantage "down under" !

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