GRGM21 tuners

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Author Message   Nobster Username: Nobster Registered: 02-2006 Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 2:40 am:    Hi, I've just bought one of these 3/4 size Ibanez "Mikro" guitars for my son. http://http://www.ibanez.com/guitars/guitar.asp?model=GRGM21&color=1 He's not seen it yet (waiting for Christmas) but I've tried it out and it all seems great, a bit too pointy for my liking but for the price it's a good little guitar, all except for one thing; the tuners are terrible! Does anyone know what replacement, reasonable quality tuners would fit straight in ? I don't need locking tuners, just something that works and I really dont want to drill the guitar. Thanks in advance Paul   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 6:31 am:    Sorry, the link doesn't seem to work. Ginger   Johns Username: Johns Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 8:21 am:    Ginger: Try this - copy the link, paste into the browser's URL textbox, remove the first "http://" then press enter and it should work. Nobster: Here's the Ibanez parts info: Parts No. / 2MH1YG1L6C Description / M.HEAD SET/L6 COVERED/C I'm not sure what replacements you should get. Maybe someone else will be able to help.   Nobster Username: Nobster Registered: 02-2006 Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 8:45 am:    Yes, sorry about the link in the first message. The guitar looks like this:   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 12:45 pm:    Nobster if you don't mind saying, what did you pay for this? I recomennded this to one of my students partents for a gift because the kids arms are just to short for a full sized guitar.   Nobster Username: Nobster Registered: 02-2006 Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 3:04 pm:    I paid 159 euros which seems a good price to me (in Europe). It came with a nice padded Ibanez bag, guitar cable and even a little pack of Ibanez plectrums. My little boy is going to very happy! It's well made, I can see no faults except for the very nasty tuners. It's a shame Ibanez did that . I would have been happy to pay just a bit more for some tuners that work.   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 7:57 am:    that seems like a good price.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 10:00 pm:    Nobster, It's a very nice looking guitar. It has all the Ibanez superstrat looks. But there is one important thing you should know about all short scale stringed instruments: if you shorten the scale, you should use thicker strings to get the normal tension when you tune it E to e'. d'Addario has a string tension table on the web: http://www.daddario.com/Resources/JDCDAD/images/tension_chart.pdf Now, if a normal scale is 25.5", then a 3/4 scale is about 18.4". That is 7.1" shorter. So it will sound 1/2 octave higher (a'') with the same strings and tension. When you tune it down to E-e' the strings will hang on your shoes!) So what should you do? In all major scales you have #, except for the major scale of c. In the string tension table, you look up Plain Steel .009 at pitch c' and you find tension 8.3 Then you go a half octave down from c' to g and look where you find a tension of 8.3 the closest tension you find is 8.2 The string you find is .012 So you should apply a .012 set of strings if you want the tension to be the same as when you use a .009 set on a 25.5 scale. We see this same principle when we compare a short scale mandola to a long neck octace mandolin. They are tuned exactly the same, but the strings of the short scale mandola are much thicker. I believe my lowest phosphor bronze strings on the mandola are .068 or someting. Ginger   Nobster Username: Nobster Registered: 02-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 1:27 am:    Ginger Thanks for that very detailed information and the link. As I said, the guitar is for my son (who's 7). He already plays a 3/4 size Yamaha acoustic so we're familiar with stringing and playing short scales. Paul   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 2:58 am:    The idea behind a short scale is to REDUCE the string tension for beginners. The Fender Mustang with it's 22.5" scale was originally aimed at students. As for the tuners; part of the problem may be the lower string tension. I think Ibanez was shipping these with 9-42 string sets when they first came out. I was putting 10-46 on before they even hit the floor in our shop. 11-49 would have been a better choice, but then the nut slots should be widened. For reference, I run 11-49 strings on my 24.0" scale Jagmaster. I like the fat tone of the short scale! The Bear   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 6:43 am:    While brushing my teeth, I recalculated, because a difference of 7.1" is too much for a fourth. Of course the scale is about 19.2", and the difference is about 6.3" The idea of a short scale for children, is NOT ONLY to reduce the string tension. (It would have been easier to buy a set of .008) but to adapt the scale to the smaller hands of the little guitarist. Playing a full scale guitar is like playing a six string bass to them. Since the scale of this 3/4 CHILDREN's guitar is still 4.8" shorter than your Jagmaster and 3.3" shorter than the Fender Mustang, 11-49 is still a little too thin for a good (normal) string tension. The tension would be like playing a set of 0.00825 Not impossible, but not ideal if you want the kid to get used to a normal string tension. Widening the nut slots actually shouldn't be necessary if the manufacturer of the instrument would have made adequate calculations. You can use the .011 set because the guitar is electrically amplified. If you use normal string tension on an 3/4 acoustic you would have a real sound problem. Ginger   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 8:18 pm:    Ginger, How about a calculator instead of a toothbrush? Your math is out to lunch. The scale on the GRGM21is 22.2". http://www.ibanez.com/guitars/guitar.asp?model=GRGM21 The Bear   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 10:06 pm:    Ah, you noticed? The button cell of our world time calculator is dead and my own was rather weak (didn't eat for 2 days because of some virus, and just recovering on chicken soup and toast with honey). But it wouldn't have helped here, since Nobster said the guitar is a 3/4 model. So I guess it isn't after all... Wrong input > wrong output. In that case 11-49 are indeed the better choice. Ginger   Nobster Username: Nobster Registered: 02-2006 Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 7:18 am:    Well, it's advertised as 3/4 size. But who cares? Really, this thread went right off topic. Please don't take this bad but I was asking about replacement tuners, remember? - after 40 years of guitar I already know about strings, short scale, and even that theres a # in the scale of Cmaj Nobster   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 3:32 pm:    Nobster, I was attempting to show a relationship between the short scale and the tuning issue. Lower string tension = less tuner friction so they "drift" more. That is why I would put heavier strings on them in the store. New strings are cheaper than new tuners The Bear To whom it may concern, The term 3/4 guitar is misleading. The size doesn't have any direct relationship to any dimension of the instrument. 3/4 and half size guitars very a lot from mfg. to mfg. Violins are sized all the way down to 1/16th or maybe smaller. A 1/16" is about half the lenth of a full size. I believe those terms are only used to make communication easier between parents and salesmen. A close look at both the Ibanez catalog and website shows no reference to 3/4 size. TB

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