Theory_VS_Feel?????

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Author Message   CHUMMER Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    i was just wondering everyones take on this subject, over the past year i've started learning a great deal about how everything relates together theory wise and have noticed a great deal of progress in my playing and i wanted a few opinions............   Reuben Luke Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    I too have just started concentrating on theory and like you, have notice an improvement. I guess my slightly increased theory knowledge has helped me increase my feel as well. And also increase my appreciation of the instrument.So I guess feel and theory should go hand in hand.Thats my take anyway...:)   The Bard Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    I think Reuben is right. The ideal thing is to mix theory an d feel. But I think there is a difference. If you want to be a real good guitarist... well, lets study a million of chords, figures and fingerings, and practice again and again the same phrases. This is not very funny, but will make of you the best guitarist around the world. But... what is a good guitarist?? A person which can play all he wants to play, and to make it to sound real good. But... Is this enough?? Maybe you play faster that anyone else. Maybe your phrasing is the more brilliant and clear of the world. I continue asking... is this enough?? Here we begin to talk about feelings. What do you prefer?? A great-hyperspeed solo of five minutes or four or a beauty melody?? I prefer to listen to a beautiful song than to a perfect virtuosist solo. But we are not talking about guitars. We are talking about MUSIC. If you can compose a beautiful song, or to play a beautiful, but not virtuosistic, slow solo, you are a great musician, even if you don't have any idea of playing the guitar. What is the conclusion?? The ideal thing is to mix theory and feelings, and you will play BEAUTIFUL songs really WELL. But if you can only choose one of them, I prefer feel, because I think that to be a musician is better than to be a guitarist (and it has been my idea since I began in music). The composer is like the "engineer", and the instrumentist (guitarist) is like the "worker". And one more thing: there are millions of good guitarist... but only a few really good musicians (composers). In a few words: mix theory and feel. If you can't or you don't want, simply take your feelings.   Kyle Kruszewski Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    This has always been a topic that was kind of touchy. It always seems that there are die-hards on both sides. Those who think soul is where it's at, and those who think that if you don't know your theory, you're a moron. I think it can be said that the fewer inhabitions one has, the better. In other words, if you can fully express yourself on the guitar without ever learning the name of one chord, go with it. If on the other hand you need to go to Berklee to express yourself, so be it. I've always viewed music as a language. How many of us were analyzing our speech as we learned to talk? I feel that if a player's actually talented and capable, analisys and study should only be supplements to the playing; by no means the basis. I don't think learning "classic" theory can ever be detrimental. I hate the stereo type of the average player coming out of GIT or Berklee as being an Yngwie-esque shread fiend, as if that's was they were actually taught to do at such institutions. If you know the theory and the technique, it's all up to what you do with it. With a healthy mind, it will never subtract from you as a player. I guess what's really important is that we stay true to ourselves. Do what comes naturally, and most of all, have a blast! If you study your nuts off and find it to be a drag, ease up. Always remember what attracted you to the guitar in the first place and you'll be all right. Woo Ha, Kyle   John Shanley (Johns) Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    In '75 I was taught guitar by another player who had no formal guitar training himself. He needed a rythym machine to practice his leads and decided teaching me was cheaper than buying a tape recorder.J I was hooked on jamming and just making music. I know most chords up to m7, in first position and barres, but need a dictionary after that. I know the blues scales and follow most rythym patterns that anyone can show me. I also have some musical training from playing organ and trumpet as a kid. My question is: how are you going about adding theory to you existing knowledge of guitar playing? I've thought about taking lessons, but if I can jam to Eric Clapton, Hendrix, Kenny Wayne Shepherd, Lynrd Skynrd, Aaron Neville (if I'm in the mood) for hours, I don't want to end up learning to sight read with Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star. That would take all the fun out of playing. And fun is why I've stayed with it for 23 years. One thing I do know, I am not finding some of the sounds that I hear other guitar players make. So I was thinking that theory must be the bridge I need to connect with some techniques or combinations which I just haven't found on my own. Your thoughts?   Kyle Kruszewski Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    Wow, John! I'm sure a library of books could be written exploring the concepts you've brought up. I find myself facing the same dilemmas. Of course music is a lifetime pursuit, but in my limited experience, I've found that "adding theory" comes subconsiously. I started playing guitar around 8th grade. I've always been sort of a noodler; never really going out of my way to study. I pretty much just figured out songs, and hammered out my technique. Now I'm 19 and finally taking guitar seriously. For once I'm really taking time out in my day to practice, meeting my little goals along the way. I've been studying with Toshi Iseda for awhile now and at first I had a hard time understanding the hell he was putting my fingers through. He has a really cool mental exersize in which one plays a series of scales or arpeggios through a "cycle of 4ths." For example, I might decide to work on the Ionian mode, first playing it in G, then C, F, and so on. (The complete cycle would be G, C, F, B-, E-, A-, D-, G-, B, E, A, D, G). On top of that, there are ten Ionian fingers to choose from for the exersize. As you can see, there are many things to ponder while executing. To get back to the point, by actually studying and running through arguably boring routines while practicing, one can actually improve playing. The exersize above is more of a mental game, because scale execution should be relatively automatic and is quite practical for getting intimate with the fingerboard. And the most amazing thing happened last night! I was running through some of these patterns, and as my mind wandered, I kept playing, while improvising off one of the Ionian shapes. I gotta say, I really impressed myself. It just shows that progress comes from repetition, whether it's from a jamming situation, or from a synthetic practicing environment. It's cool because if you have the concepts to drill during your practice, you can expand your palette of options in ways that you might not have discovered only by "jamming." I don't know; that probably didn't come out very clearly. I hope my point came accross. I'd like to hear anybody else's experience with effectively integrating theoretical study into playing. Kyle   JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    Kyle: Excuse my ignorance, but who is Toshi Iseda? A local teacher, I assume. Wear abouts are you? One of my problems is that "labels" like Ionian and Dorian, fifths and whatnot, just turns my mind to the neutral position. I guess I'm to used to doing something rather than trying to wrap my mind around a "concept". Even trying to read tabs (which is way easer than reading real music) to figure out a song just bores my very quickly. I'm sure I need a teacher, but am to afraid to waste the time and money finding someone who will "custom fit" the lesson plan to my very disjointed level. BTW, you do a very good job of communicating for a 19 year old.   Kyle Kruszewski Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    Toshi Iseda. . . Man, he is a killer player! I first found out about him when I saw him doing a clinic for the Shecter seven string line of guitars at Beautiful Music in Downers Grove, Il. Not only did his playing totally aggree with me and inspire, but a lot of what he had to say just clicked with me. (Not to mention that he was at Berklee with Dream Theater. :) ) Then I found out that he teaches as well. . . It was tough going from sitting around figuring out songs in my bedroom to studying with Toshi. I felt like I just joined the army and was getting my ass kicked by basic or something. I think committing to the lessons has been one of the most beneficial things to happen to my playing. It's really scary when one has to start applying names and other misc. lingo to already familiar concepts, but it's all part of what comes with becoming what I'm striving for. I have similar apprehensions with regard to approaching tabs, etc. It seems like the further into the game you start trying to relearn the basics, the tougher it's going to be. After George Lynch had found the beginnings of success with Dokken, he was ashamed of his inability to read guitar music, charts, etc. He actually took lessons at a local music store, wanting his instructor to treat him as a beginner. It didn't work. Guys like George have this scary ability to just do it! And he seemed to just get better and better as his career progressed. Keep in mind though, that George probably has a regiment of his own. Even if he's not "studying" in the traditional sense, he probably puts in a lot of thought to his practice time and just has the preprogrammed mentallity to succeed with the guitar. I don't know. . . maybe a teacher is what you're looking for; if not just for instruction, but for the discipline. That right there is a big part of it. Well, time for bed! :) Later, all. Kyle PS If you're interested, visit Toshi's site: www.overthetop.com   JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    Thanks for the link to Toshi's site. 7-string heaven! The story about George Lynch is just the inspiration I wanted to hear. Like the Beatles (you've heard of them? J) Just 4 guys with no training who would eventually write some incredible stuff. Not techno-rock, but taking music into a new place. Then too, there's Beethoven. Goes deaf, can't hear what he's doing, but still composes music the likes of which most humans could never dream of. It must have been like math to guy. But not 2+2, more like 2100+2100. What kind of regimen does Toshi have you on? I mean, does he have books with lessons to follow? Does he split the lessons into parts or just drills one thing for a hour? Does he care what music interests you and steers lessons in that direction? Maybe I'm turned off by music teachers, cause my grandfather was one. He played guitar, bass and banjo in orchestras. Even had his own. But he was a bear when he tried to help me with trumpet in the 6th grade. Bleck, who needs that grief? Music should be fun...at least part of the time.   Chummer Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    i also started learning to improvise , but using the intervals as well as the major(ionian mode)the way this works is the intervals are always the same layed out on the neck and if you learn how theyre layed out the possibilities are endless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for example G major = G A B C D E F# G E MINOR E F# G A B C D E ARE THE SAME just the starting note is different. and each note you can build a mode off of in g major A would be dorian, B phyrigian, C lydian etc.. i agree feel and theory are best used together. if you look at the intervals with a 3 note per string fingering 1 4 5 are major 2 3 6 are minor and 7th diminished, 1 4 5 has a 2 whole step pattern 2and6 a whole half shape and 3and7 a half whole shape.and if you start on the lowest end of the neck F#(3rd fret e string)it would be a 7 shape, ascend to A string a 3rd shape, D string 6 shape, G string 2 shape,B string a 5 shape,e string a 1 shape, which would be the locrian mode so F# Locrian is also Gmajor and these shapes of the intervals never change it becomes secnd nature like breathing and you lose no feel you just know where everything is. my friend he's a really talented musician showed me this along with excerscises and lots more stuff. i wanna know how all of you guys look at the fretboard i believe you should use what works for you and this works for me but how does everyone else decide how they solo???   Lionel Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    I believe that every post on this board agrees with the idea that a delicate balance between theory and feel expression should be carefully kept. Now, that's to our point of view because, (I assume), we are all rather experienced guitarists, judging from the way you guys talk. But what about a clean nosed novice? Should someone who has NO idea about what a chord even is start by learning expression and how to tear feelings from his heart? or should this person go get some formal basic guitar lessons? Myself, like many others I believe, learnt things the hard way by "listening" and figuring out what was being played... the expression came later as I grew older. Now I'm beginning to take up theory. (You need that stuff to decipher John Petrucci's compositions) I'm just curious as to what kind of guitarist I would have been if I started on theory. Would I have been better now? Less stressed? or maybe even devoid of emotion due to all the theory practices? Or would I still be able to throw my feelings at the audience anytime I play? I dunno... what do you guys think? I know what works for me now, after 9 years of playing, but could I have speeded that up?   John Shanley (Johns) Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    WARNING: LONG BORING POST Lionel, you bring up some good questions. Trying to figure out what we would be like had things been different earlier in our lives is a tempting digression. The ultimate answer is: "I'd be different." I like the analogy of life (and endeavours like learning guitar) as a train ride. Many get on and get off, some even arriving at the same destination as our own. But it's what we experienced on the way that makes us unique. And more importantly, did we enjoy ourselves? Sometimes we get to our destination and for whatever reason it's not what we expected or we grow out of it. So we ante up whatever it takes to get back on the train and head out to a new destination. But are we enjoying the trip? Or are we too obsessed with reaching Nirvana at the end of the tracks? For me, the trip (guitar playing, that is) has been very enjoyable. But at this stage, the scenery is getting a little too predictable. I'm getting restless and feeling the desire to "move on". To where and how do I get there? I began the trip with the help of someone who said, "here's a ticket to ride, enjoy yourself and follow your heart." Now, I need some more guidance. But I don't have another 20 years to ramble. So, now I'm wondering about getting maps and charts and some expert help learning to read this stuff so I can plot a direct course to faraway and exotic places. It's definitely more work than fun. And I'm resisting it. So, what's all this got to do with guitar and "what if I had done it differently"? A real life experience: My sister and I learned organ when we were around 8 or 9. I drop all interest after the basics. Later, my sister took lessons for 4 or 5 years. Eventually, she progressed beyond what her teacher could provide. In the meantime, I'd learned guitar enough to read the chords in her music books. We played some songs, me providing some rythym. Then I said, let's jam. You know, make something up of our own. She couldn't do it. There was no concept at all that she could deviate from a written page of notes. She couldn't create anything of her own after all those hours of devotion and practice. Nearly 20 years later she has stopped playing completely. I wonder if she really enjoyed the ride? JohnS   Lionel Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    Johns. Advice is always good. Your post was long, but not boring. I agree in being different, but the real question is, would I be better? I had the same problem with a friend as you had with your sister. My friend is quite a good classical pianist and has been very helpful with my theory. But the minute I said "lets just fool around with some chords", he gave me a very blank stare. But thankfully, this guy has enough musical sense to listen and has started on a whole new direction of playing by "listening" to me when I play. I do a little lick and he comes up with a melody based on that lick! So now he's like very into Vai and Dream Theater. (thanks to me:) But the speed in which he picked it up was amazing. cos he had ALL the theory he needed. I was just teaching him how to feel. (dead playing y'know, it's the pits.) But then again, I guess if he didn't "have it", then I guess he probably couldn't pick it up in the first place.   John Shanley (Johns) Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    Lionel: Better? Logic dictates that the more you know the better you'll always be. But will you ever know everything? No. So, what's the point? I think it's being happy about what you are doing. That's what will keep you playing AND learning AND getting better, IMHO. Your friend proved that he's not just a piano technician, he's a musician. Music is in his mind and it comes out of his fingers. I think of myself as a musician, who loves guitar. But I don't think of what I'm doing with guitar as communicating, rather creating. This is probably because my first talent is art, drawing, painting, etc. I don't try to communicate anything in my art. Just reproduce real-life within a 2d structure. Consequently, my concept of music is the same. Maybe when (if) I become a better technician (music theory) or guitarist (fingers on both hands being where they should be) I'll have grown into a different way of seeing things. I'm hoping that it will be that simple. But I doubt it. J   Dale Rasco Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    I don't think that just because you know your theory your are automatically emotionless. I feel that whatever your level of knowledge is, it takes a drive to play and that drive is a feeling that burns down inside. So I am of the opinion that if you play because you love it, you are playing with feeling.   what a mess Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    hello i am not a new player but i feel new... i have had my guitar for 8 years.....but have only been playing serious for 1 and a half of those 8...and i feel lost...i dont know if im progressing....and i cant tell..i practice..but only about an hour a day....and its not on drills or anything..its just songs i wanna know...now this bothers me because i see people that play amazing...and i want that.......so basically what im asking here is can someone help me..guide me inot the light?.....i need a teacher and i need one that is willing to put up with my wierdness i need some kind of practice regimne....i look on the web..but i dont find anything worth useing....i mean what some people put out there is great..but to me its pointless. all these things like cycle of 5ths and cycle of fourths and mixolydian and dorian ...make my head spin..but i want to know them..and i want to know them well....my goal is to become like Patrucci or Bill Steer my idol so if you can help me maybe give me someone to talk to on here that has heped you..with insiration..that would be great.... thanks im a jumbled mess   Lionel Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    what a mess... is that your name? or state of mind? Many people out there who do play very very well, did not have a teacher... What they did have was determination and concentration. I remember John Petrucci saying in a column for guitar world:" practicing for an hour a day is better that practicing for 12 hours once a week..." or something to that effect... if you don't have a teacher, then go invest in some instructional books... plow into them day and night until you know all the riffs inside forwards and backwards... that's one way to start. Another way, is to really listen to others playing instead of just being amazed.. try to pick up what they're doing. If you can't, then ask them. Remember what you've learnt, then go home and consolidate them... John Petrucci learnt his chops by using an old Mickey Mouse Record (or tape?) Player that could slow down the pace of playing on a record, and he learnt each and evry solo, riff and lick he wanted to. Then, when you've managed to do that, try doing those things differently. A different riff, lick or solo, but over the same key. At the same time, try to preserve the gracefulness or ferocity of the original song. There. If that doesn't work, then go get yourself a teacher.   Elliott Kim Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    This is great! There are some healthy attitudes here. I have little tolerance for either end of the issue. I wholeheartedly agree with what's been said here. Let me conclude by saying something that I've always been fond of saying: Your ears tell you *what* sounds good. Theory tells you why.   joe alexander Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    Hi, The way i went about things was to learn all the theory that i could from my teacher and then I kinda knew what i could get away with musically wise. After that i guess it is down to you, you need to put your feelings and emotions in the guitar. After all, it is just wood and steel, what you put in, you will inevitably get out. Try to learn your modes based off Major. Pentatonics (all 5 positions) And try to study how chords and scales relate to each other. This is a bit way out but it kinda worked for me a bit- On vai.com, Print out The martian love secrets section as this gives you a great list of things That stevie thinks that you should know, It goes on many levels but give it a go. (how can you argue with possibly the world best guitarist) I hope that this is useful. Joseph   What a mess Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    yes thats my state of mind...and i am in the priocess of getting instructional booklets...and things like that i mean i can play the music ai want to play...but all this imporvising stuff...what playing the guitar is all about is hard for me to grasp like the way you described playing the riffs and solos in another key????????? i have no idea...... sorry for being ignorant..but i came here to get help.... thanks   Raven Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    My take on this subject is your ears tell you what to do and theory helps you communicate it better. I've heard this quote somewhere before: "Practice practice practice practice, and then forget about all that •••• and JUST PLAY." There is no theory vs. feel- they are a team that somehow got seperated along the line.   joseph alexander Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    yeah man just practice, but i am doing 4 a levels, ive got a job and dont have time. I just want to cry sometimes. I want to go to berklee and i could never afford it so i need either funding or a scholarship- no time to practice, no good joe on guitar NO Scholarship. I know ive got it in me, I just want to die sometimes   metal Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:04 am:    All I have to say is that if a guitar makes you feel good when you play, then go for it. Ibanez 7 strings are the best for me and make me feel good when I play so it's all good.   Orange_Adam (Orange_Adam) Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 3:48 pm:    I used to be the kind of guy who practiced 8-10hrs a day listening to all the blazing guitarists even got a scholarship at Berklee and then, my friend ( bassplayer) Adam M. joined the band and a lot of other things opened up to me. He played nothing but bare bones, suddenly that opened up a million things for me!!!!!Now I try not to practise to much I try to write songs and bring them to life! I used to be so conerned about being the fastest the best and now I could not care less. My only question to myself is :Am I humble enough? The beauty of music and comunication is always there it's just that sometimes we overanalyse and things get lost..... I can say I know a bit about theory and maybe I do use it but I certainly don't go writing songs and thinking about how this chord relates to that..... When I chanellise/perform it's nothing but pure feeling and emotion!!! If you want that special energy to touch you and inspire you've got to put your ratio aside! My recpect to all the jazzers here! a. www.gloft.com

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