Tri-Tone switch positions?

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Author Message   Gary_R (Gary_R) Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 8:23 pm:    This is my first message here. My name is Gary and I play both acoustic and electric as a hobby, collect a little, though not just Ibanez. I suffer from a mild case of Guitar Acquisition Syndrome and my wife is very supportive of my problem, so far. Just recently acquired my first Ibanez Artist AR-305 (1982). I love it! Very nice guitar. But the tri-tone switch operation has me wondering. On a previous discussion thread here the consensus was as follows: The up position (towards the pick-ups) was the normal humbuck mode. Middle switch position is single coil (agreed). And down towards volume knobs is the phase reverse position. Right? Assuming the above is correct AND my guitar has not been altered (which I can't 100% confirm) Then it means the phase reverse position is a louder, more powerful mode than the full humbucker on my guitar. That surprizes me. Or my switches are backwards. So my question is this: Shouldn't the normal humbucker mode be the loudest of the three positions? If yes, then my tri-tone is not positioned with up being humbucker and down being phase reverse, it is opposite of that. When I opened the back cover, the wiring didn't look disturbed. At that time I opened it I wasn't specifically looking for the tri-tone toggle switch "forensics". So are other tritone equipped artists configured the same as mine? Did Ibanez always assemble the tritones switches the same? Any help or insights.Thanks in advance. Gary   Johns (Johns) Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 9:18 pm:    Here's a picture that Gary sent of his '82 AR305. Ummmm, that top looks gorgeous.   Blues (Blues) Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 10:29 pm:    Gary, On my 1980 AS200 semihollow I believe the TRI-SOUND Switch to have the following wiring: _The up position (towards the pick-ups) is the normal humbuck mode (both coils active in series. _Middle switch position is single coil mode _"The down position is the Parallel mode" (both coils active but in parallel as opossed to series) This is my best guess! BLUES   Gary_R (Gary_R) Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:24 pm:    Thanks Blues. Is your parallel (down) position distinctly louder? G   Blues (Blues) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 1:35 am:    Gary, The answer is YES! It is LOUDER! If the down position were putting the coils OUT OF PHASE the output volume would be much much softer. BLUES   Fredb (Fredb) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 4:28 pm:    Gary, I think the parallel position may not officially be "louder" (in decibels, that is), but it definitely is a harsher sound, which can easily cut through walls, eardrums, and anything else that happens to be in the way. Oddly enough, on AR500s the tri-sounds work the opposite way (humbucker position points down). Fred   Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 5:54 pm:    If you really want to solve this, once and for all, it's very easy. You just need to connect an ohm meter to the output jack. I have a test jig I made to do this. You need a 1/4" plug and 2 short wires. Connect one wire to the signal (tip), and one to the ground (sleeve). Plug the test jig into the guitars jack and connect the ohm meter leads to the wires. Set it for a range that will read around 4 to 16 kohms (4000 to 16,000). Turn the volume and tone controls all the way up. Select the pickup with the tri-sound switch (one or the other if both have it). The highest resistance reading is series (standard humbucker mode), the lowest is the parallel mode, and the middle reading will be the single-coil mode. Cheers Steve   Johns (Johns) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 6:28 pm:    On my AR305 the down position is the loudest.   Gary_R (Gary_R) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 7:18 pm:    Thanks all- If I ever get home from work tonight I will try your test, Steve. Maybe all this is just my erroneous presumption that the single coil and phase reverse were both audibly "weaker" settings. Truth is, how it sounds is more important than how it's set. I just like to know. I'll dig up a 1/4 " jack, ohm it out and let you know. Again, Thanks G   Fredb (Fredb) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 8:17 pm:    Hmmm, theoretically there shouldn't be a difference in resistance due to the combined coils in both the humbucker and parallel settings, right? To satisfy my inner empiricist I whipped out me '77 2619 and got the following: Bridge pickup Humbucker pos: 8.13K Single pos: 4.20K Parallel pos: 8.13K Neck pickup Humbucker pos: 7.75K Single pos: 3.94K Parallel pos: 7.75K I think the notion of loudness is more of a qualitative thing since the parallel pos on the tri-sound is really harsh (unless combined with the other pickup). Regards Fred   Munch (Munch) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 8:55 pm:    Fred, I am a little unsure why you think resistance in pickup coils doesn't vary. AFAIK you get different resistance with the same speakers wired in series v's parallel. EG: 2 8 ohm speakers in series gives 16 ohms, whereas in parallel you get 4 ohms. Why would coils in a pickup be any different in this regard from speaker coils? Thanks, Mark   Fredb (Fredb) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 10:16 pm:    Mark, I think you may have hit on part of the point here, in pulling out a few quick refs it looks like the usage of parallel here is technically incorrect, the wiring in the 3rd pos is actually series in-phase, so the resistance is preserved (since having parallel would mean 1/4 of the combined resistances). The '78 catalog description of the tri-sound settings calls them "humbucking, single coil and reverse phased twin coil". Fred   Fredb (Fredb) Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 10:43 pm:    ...just wanted to add that this is one of the few boards where I continually learn a thing or two...you know, I've been calling that 3rd setting "parallel" for years, without even questioning it. But there may be more to this thread than meets the eye though, as my formally-known-as-parallel 3rd pos actually isn't as loud as the humbucker setting, which everyone else is claiming. An open question: did they actually change the tri-sound wiring at some point?   Gary_R (Gary_R) Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 12:15 am:    OK. Following Steve's test method on my 82 AR305, here are my results: Note: I measured across my 15 ft planet waves cable so round trip resistance may have increased an ohm or so due to added wire length. Bridge pick up only, T and V full up: A- tritone switch down = 7.41 K B- tritone switch middle = 3.68 K C- tritone switch up = 1.873 K Neck only: A- 7.30 K B- 3.68 K C- 1.843 K For kicks: with both neck and bridge pick ups, and tritones in identical positions, ohm readings were very close to half of above, since the individual pick up circuits are roughly the same and in parallel, half makes sense. So... If Steve's method is correct, which makes sense, MY guitar is set up with down being humbucker and up (towards the pick ups) being phase reverse. This is what I originally thought and what my ears told me. Now, Fred's tritones may be wired as humbuck and split coil only, just two positions. It seems I've read here (or the model specs on the Vintage Ibanez Site) that some early Artists were set up that way, although Ibanez may have used 3-way toggles for both configurations instead of inventory of both 2 and 3 way toggles (?? that is total speculation). That Fred's two switch positions yield the exact same ohms indicates you are most likely measuring across the same points. I checked again and my down tritone (heretofore referred to as humbucker mode) is decibally louder than phase reverse. Also I remember somebody on this board describing the phase position as "weedier". Mine doesn't sound murky, muddy, weedy or anything detrimental. I'm pleasantly surprised at how useable these tritones are. So, did Ibanez change (improve) the tritone concept in those early years 78-82? Isn't the guy at the Vintage Site a source for specific technical questions like this? Doesn't he work for Ibanez? Does anybody know him? Regardless, Fred, you are so right about this board. Great exchange of info going on here. Thanks. G   Blues (Blues) Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 12:17 am:    Guys, I believe Ibanez changed the TRI-SOUND on the AS200 as compared to the 2630 semi-hollow. The 2630 has the TRI-SOUND connected to the BRIDGE PICKUP. There is one setting that is extremely bright and ear wrecking. On the AS200 the TRI-SOUND switch is connected to the NECK PICKUP and does not have a out of phase selection like on the 2630 model. I would question most of the guitars with TRI-SOUND switch wiring made during mid 1979 or before. I remember some time ago taking one of my AS200 guitars to get the original pickups re-installed. I remember the Tec stating that the NECK pickup on the AS200 should be wired series-parallel! I just tested my 1980 AS200 TRI-SOUND Switch on the NECK Position: /b{HERE IS WHAT I FOUND:} _The up position (towards the pick-ups) is the PARALLEL MODE (both coils active in Parallel (1.99K ohms). _Middle switch position is SINGLE COIL MODE (3.92K ohms) _"The down position is the "SERIES HUMBUCK MODE" (both coils active but in SERIES (7.61K ohms) /blue{BLUES}   Fredb (Fredb) Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 3:45 pm:    Gary, I think we need to clarify the terminology here, and this topic has actually cleared up a lot about these tri-sounds. We can argue about physical wiring, wire colors, etc., but you can't argue with resistance readings -- your readings confirm that the 3rd pos of your tri-sounds (pos C in your post) wire the coils in *parallel*, not phase reverse, and the values of pos C are about 1/4 of pos A, also correct. My 3rd pos of the tri-sound wires the two coils as series in-phase, since they're still wired in series the resistance levels are the same...there is a noticeable lack of bass (tinniness, if that means anything in the qualitative sense) and a bit less volume, so I'm not sure why you're inferring that I actually only has two settings. With two coils there are four possibilities: series out-of-phase (humbucker) series in-phase (my 3rd pos) parallel out-of-phase parallel in-phase From everyone else's description of how strong the 3rd pos sounds, it looks like the other 3rd pos is parallel out-of-phase. If anyone can confirm whether or not the 3rd pos is humbucking or not will clear this up for good. All my tri-sound Artists are this way, I have 4 and the latest is from early '80. Thanks to Steve for recommending we all whip out the multimeters, great info!!! Regards, Fred   Gary_R (Gary_R) Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 11:40 pm:    Fred- Your explanation does make much more sense than my speculation. After my post last night, I was wondering why there would be a 3 different tones if it were only two circuits. So.. my third position is parallel based on basic resistance calcs and my measurements. So now, is it in or out of phase? Since it is advertised in the old spec sheets as "phase reversed" I must assume it is reversed from the humbucker mode which is out of phase so I'm guessing my postion 3 is parallel and in phase. And wouldn't that also explain why my position 3 is not the harsh sounding tones others are describing? I guess other guitars have the same switches configured differently: parallel in or parallel out of phase. Seems like that would be a huge consideration when buying one of these, based on the descriptions I am hearing, I'm not sure I would care for the tones so harsh that it is only useful if blended and not useful on its own. Or, it just occurred to me, is it pick up dependent? The Super 58s on mine are not considered hot right? Anyway now I have reasonable confidence in what settings I am using and I don't want to become obnoxious with my ?? this soon. I'll save that for later:~) Indulge me one more though. Have some of you changed your perception of what switch positions you have been playing on? Thanks. G   Fredb (Fredb) Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 7:08 pm:    Gary, I agree this whole topic you started has led to a better understanding of these switches, when everyone chimed in with their readings it really rang a bell that the subjective descriptions can only go so far in describing them. Since I've seen both "phase reverse" and "parallel" in the different product literature I thought it just might be a language translation issue, and it's actually pretty funny how I never got around to just measuring the resistance of any pickups in that 3rd pos, since I've started doing this with my pickups to get a better understanding of their tonal differences. Maybe part of the problem is that a pickup can be both series/parallel and in-phase/out-of-phase at the same time, since there are four combinations. I guess calling a pickup "reverse phase" would only technically be correct if it was in-phase since a normal humbucker is series out-of-phase, and that there can be both series in-phase and parallel in-phase that would count as a phase reversal in that sense. That's why I was trying to find out if anyone else's parallel versions are humbucking, as the parallel out-of-phase combo is still a humbucker. In any case, welcome to the board. I've been checking in here for a couple years and this has been one of the more interesting topics I've seen in a while, mostly 'cause the old Artists are such great guitars and among my favorites... Fred   Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 4:16 pm:    You guys might wanna check out the thread under Miscellaneous: GUITAR ELECTRONICS: Theory vs Practice Gary R's numbers were exactly what I would have expected from a Tri-Sound setup. Bridge pick up only, T and V full up: A- tritone switch down = 7.41 K B- tritone switch middle = 3.68 K C- tritone switch up = 1.873 K Neck only: A- 7.30 K B- 3.68 K C- 1.843 K This being: UP - standard (series) humbucking Middle - single-coil Down - parallel humbucking. On the other hand, I'm stymied by the resistance readings obtained by Fredb on his '77 2619. Bridge pickup: Humbucker pos: 8.13K Single pos: 4.20K Parallel pos: 8.13K Neck pickup: Humbucker pos: 7.75K Single pos: 3.94K Parallel pos: 7.75K The middle switch position is consistant with a "tapped" single coil mode. However, for both outer positions to have the same reading, the coils must be in series in both positions. This leaves only a phase reversal option to create a different sound. Wiring a humbucker with it's coils "out-of-phase" should resulted in virtually zero output as the signals are cancelling each other. And the hum should be doubled instead of cancelled! Another anomaly is in the readings themselves. If one coil is 4.20k (bridge), then two wired in series should be exactly double. But instead of the expected 8.4k, we get 8.13k. Gary R's numbers are mathematically almost perfect. Mighty interesting stuff goin' on here. BTW: Sorry for suggesting a range of 4k - 16k on your ohm meters. I'm accustomed to reading V2 and IBZ pickups with resistances of 15-16kohms. Oops! Cheers Steve   Gary_R (Gary_R) Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 11:53 pm:    Steve- When I was deciding on buying this guitar and after I received it, I did go thru the Theory vs Practice thread and a few posts above it there was a tri-tone related thread. These contributed to my confusion as far as I was assuming they (Tri-tone equipped) were all set up the same. I guess we've removed that supposition, if anything. A couple of points: I would not expect each coil that comprises a humbucker to be EXACTLY the same resistance. One might be 4.2K and the other 3.93K which equals a difference of ~6% between them, and that's after use and aging which I would expect induce drift over time. I am still wondering if Ibanez wired these tri-tones differently based on the pick ups or if they actually offered optional choice. As I said previously, if the third position is sometimes parallel in phase and sometimes parallel out of phase (and I'm still not sure what that difference has on the sound characteristics) what determined the set up? Year? Model? Customer choice? Also you wrote: >This being: UP - standard (series) humbucking Middle - single-coil Down - parallel humbucking.< I think you meant the opposite, since we have concurred that my up position is parallel. Please don't take that from me! ;~) I'll take a look at some of your earlier posted diagrams when I get a chance. I really appreciate the outflow of help on this board. JohnS: you have really enabled something special here! G   Guitaki (Guitaki) Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 9:45 am:    Guys. I'm sorry, my english skills won't yet let me say these things shortly... Great that You are so specificly interested in what You've got. I have also always been. It is obvious, that Gary and Fred have different tri-sounds. I have had tri-sounds in a MC300 '78 and AR300 '81. They both had the same wiring that Gary has in his AR. The terms are clearing up, but there is one thing I want to grab. Normal humbucker is in series. The hum is cancelled, because the wires (leads) are connected out-of-phase. Still, the signal is not out-of-phase and cancelled because of the reversed magnetic polarity. This means, roughly, that the hum is generated by the coil, and signal is generated by the magnet. When the coils are connected out-of-phase, the hum will kill itself, but since the signal is generated by two coils that have opposite magnetic polarity, the signal is doubled. So, when the wires (coils) are out-of-phase and cancelling hum, the signal that comes from the coils is in-phase. Phew.. long sentences. Anyway, if under 2kohm, the pickup is clearly in parallel mode. About the sound and volume. Normal humbucking (parallel) is loudest and has more bottom than any other setting. Parallel (signal in-phase) is the second loudest. The difference to a single coil position is not too great, but this position excels when using two pickups. More on this in the following. Single coil is articulate and dynamic, connected in a way that a regular Strat pickup would be. Perhaps slightly less bottom than in parallel mode, but more dynamic and lively. Out-of-phase is when the signal is really out of phase. Someone said it would cancel all the signal, and in theory it would, if the coils were identical and located in the same spot. Nevertheless, a sound is heard, but it should be even more silent than a single coil. The bass is cut, but only the nastiest treble is saved, since the coils will have a slight difference in treble outputs. Treble frequencies have a lot shorter wave length, and so even two coils that are next to eachother will have differencies in the trebles, and those are now heard in this position. I don't find this position too useful. Maybe for some strange effects. I would rewire my trisound to support the parallel mode. The parallel position used with another pickup. Artisters, try this one. Connect the both pickups on, neck pu in parallel and bridge pu in series. The bridge pu has now about 8kohm DC resistance while neck pu has around 2kohm. This makes the signal come more from the neck pu even if the parallel position is not as loud as the bridge pu in series. This makes a great clean snapping sound that will distantly resemble the Strat's neck and mid pu position. Switching the bridge HB in parallel and the neck HB in series, it will have a sound resembling more the Strat's bridge and mid position, since the signal comes more from the bridge pu. The difference is not as great as it is with a Strat, but still nice. Also, what You can do with the tone control differs. The DC resistance of a pickup is a major thing in determing the frequency that the tone will start cutting from. The greater the resistance, the more the tone will cut. You can try this with a tri-sound pickup; put the tone in 0-postition, and using only the pickup in question, try different tri-sounds. Series will be darkest, and parallel will have more upper mids left. This is why a Strat has a nice honk when using bridge and middle pu's with the tone cut all back. Only the bridge pickup wouldn't let as much treble come thru. Since I'm in the zone, man, I continue with short explanation about Strats' in-between position. I hear people say, that the "out-of-phase" sound is the one that strats are known for. Oh boy. Some strats are hum cancelling in the 2nd and 4th positions, but the signal, clearly, is in phase. You can not hear difference in sound when the two coils are hum cancelling or not in the parallel mode. Therefore no (correctly working) Strat has an out-of-phase in the 2nd and 4th positions. Some RSs and Blades have the possibility, but only an added possibility. Which I don't care for. -Aki.   Gary_R (Gary_R) Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 10:46 pm:    Aki- What you said made me think this: (At least on the Humbuck/coil tap/parallel set up tri-tones) I think Ibanez was maybe going for the 2 and 4 strat positions with the tritone parallel settings. Strats, with the mid and bridge coil or mid and neck coils in parallel are somewhat approximated the by the parallel settings, aside from the differences in construction, woods, etc.   Guitaki (Guitaki) Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 4:49 am:    Yes, I agree, with the exception that I think the above mentioned both on, neck in parallel -setup will be closer to a strat than a single hb in parallel mode. But yes, that (strat) is the direction of versatility that the tri-sound aims. And I love it! It can create most cool funk tones. -Aki.   Fredb (Fredb) Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 9:09 pm:    ...realize this topic is a bit played out, with the result being that some tri-sounds, based on model and year, are "phase reverse" (series in-phase) and some are parallel. Was doing some work today and realized that *every one* of my Ibanez with switches is phase reverse only, the lastest is from '80 and include '75 2671, 2 pos switch on bridge pickup Super 70 '76 2619, 2 pos switch on bridge pickup only, with prototype "Super 90"s '77 2619 (from above) '79 AR500BK '80 AR500AV (my super-beater '78 AR300 currently has some experimental wiring and replacement pickups, so couldn't be counted) BTW, if anyone is interested in picking up an AR500, should be putting up the '80 AR500AV on ebay in the next day or two. It's a great guitar, just focusing on a more reasonable number of guitars, gotta hand it to you hardcore collectors out there...after you get over a certain number, keeping them all in top playing condition can get to be A LOT OF WORK!!! Regards, Fred

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