Bridge "Shifting" While Palying... AK...

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Author Message   Oldave Username: Oldave Registered: 2-2006 Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 10:40 am:    I have had my Ibanez AK86 for a few months now and I have a serious problem with the Rosewood Bridge shifting out of position while playing. Obiviuosly this throws the whole guitar out of whack. intonation etc... etc... Has anyone had this problem...??? Any suggestions as how to rectify this situation...(Get my local luthier to "Glue" the bridge down onto the body) ??? I should mention that I have been a "Telecaster" Player all my life (Playing 44 years now), and I didn`t realize how much pressure the "Heel" of my hand is putting on the bridge...!!! On my Telecaster it doesn`t matter, but on the Ibanez this is a different story...!!! I have tried to change my playing style somewhat, to be a bit "Easier" on the bridge, "But it`s hard to teach an old dog new tricks"...!!! Thanks in advance for any suggestions or comments...!!! oldave...   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 2:46 pm:    !st of all did you remove the foam that was underneath the floating bridge when you bought it? Also are you using extra light gauge strings?   Oldave Username: Oldave Registered: 2-2006 Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 5:55 pm:    Yes I removed the "Foam" piece under the bridge. I am using #11 to #52`s, so i can`t imagine my string gauge is too light...???   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 8:21 pm:    #11 to #52 is not heavy for a jazz box. I use #12 to #52 d'Addario Chromes (flatwounds), look at the tensions: http://www.juststrings.com/dad-ecg25.html The tension of a flatwound set is higher than that of a roundwound set, because the core is thicker. This is a roundwound (nickel not stainless steel) jazz set of the same brand and gauge: http://www.juststrings.com/dad-ej21.html But I think the biggest problem is your technique. What's your hand doing on the bridge? On a jazz box you will get the warmest tone when you play as close to the middle of the strings as possible, so theoretically (acoustically) that's above the 12th fret. The best place to pick your strings on an electric jazz guitar is above the NECK pickup. I hope that 1) you can get used to it and 2)you still have your telecaster, because a total change of your technique after many years of playing is not easy. Try playing lead through the neck pickup with a few tunes that are easy for you. Until now you used your tele neck pickup almost strictly for rythm. On a jazz box that's different. Ginger   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 9:06 pm:    Oldave, Have your local shop "pin" the bridge for you. That'll take care of the creeping problem. Ginger, Not everybody plays "Jazz" on a "Jazz Box". Ever heard of Rockabilly? What works for you may not work for others. And how the hell do you know what he uses his Tele neck pickup for? The Bear   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 4:41 am:    He uses it in such a way that he presses firmly on the bridge while playing, so he won't be playing rythm guitar on the bridge pickup of his Tele. You try it! What I meant is that he's obviously mainly playing lead at the bridge in a very particular way with his hand or underarm pressing the tele bridge. That's a habit that doesn't work on a jazz box, no matter what type of music you play. Ginger   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 8:31 am:    olddave The Bears idea is a good one! Look into that. I used to have that problem from bending with a floating bridge but since I got the AS103 that stopped because its anchored to a block that runs through the center of it.   Oldave Username: Oldave Registered: 2-2006 Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 10:03 am:    Thanks for your comments guys...!!! I think I`ll "Pin" the bridge as "The Bear" suggested. My playing style is for me to rest the heel of my hand on the bridge and I finger pick and do string bends etc. etc. By the way...I rarely use my Tele Neck PU for rhythm, I almost exclusively use the combination of the neck and bridge PU`s for rhythm and leads,I do sometimes use the Tele neck PU for some warmer jazz tones. I am a Jazz/Blues player, and I do get a little "Heavy-Handed" in my playing style at times with Blues,so I appreciate the suggestion of "Pinning" the bridge. Thanks again !!! oldave   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 10:20 pm:    Steve, what do you mean by "pinning" the bridge? Nail it to the top? Oldave, the combination of both tele pickups is exactly what I prefer too. Ginger   Oldave Username: Oldave Registered: 2-2006 Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 11:35 pm:    I didn`t really understand the term "Pin" the bridge,... myself, but I was just going to ask my local luthier about doing "This" when I take it into him to replace the "Shitty" control pots, and replace the "Shitty" machine heads(Tuners). Thanks ...!!! oldave...   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 2:50 am:    Ginger, Why don't you just Google it like everything else? The Bear   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 10:22 am:    Do you really think I'd bother you with this question without googling it first? As you know, I'm not American, and I appreciate the explanation of USA vocabulary as much as I appreciate the explanation of British, Canadian and Australian vocabulary (wrenches or spanners etc. remember?), because it's my work. Look what I found when I Googled the name of an old bike pedal spanner: http://www.htpaa.org.au/ozwrenches.php I don't consider myself too old to learn. And I can tell you, that Googling helps. So does my private library with hundreds of dictionaries and lexicons. But do you know how long it takes to get your knowledge printed in a decent book? Ask Harry and Hasy.... AGES, and mostly that is NOT the author's own fault. So, long live Google and long live Wikipedia. I'm not the only one who doesn't understand what you mean, but I'm always open to new knowledge. So would you please be so kind to answer the question, Mr Bear? Ginger   Wildfield Username: Wildfield Registered: 5-2005 Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 10:51 am:    Ginger, I (regretfully) had an Ibanez ES-175 copy (w/L4 style tailpiece) pinned about 20 years ago. At the time, I was just getting into jazz guitar and I purchased the guitar used from my guitar instructor for $350. Anyways, it had a floating bridge which "fell" off when I removed all the strings. Having never owned an archtop (or electric guitar for that matter) I couldn't understand why they wouldn't secure the bridge to the top more permanently. I took it to a local repair shop. They positioned the bridge so that intonation was correct and marked it. He drilled 2 holes through the top (underneath the bridge) and drilled 2 corresponding holes underneath the bridge but not all the way through to the top of the bridge. He then glued in 2 small dowels into the holes in the bridge and finally fit the bridge complete with pins into the holes drilled into the top and glued the whole assembly down. Definitely permanently secured that floating bridge. In my case, I wish I had left it alone. I no longer own that guitar so out of sight, out of mind. Hope that explains the pinned bridge. By the way, to each his own. As long as the repair person pins the bridge in the right place (correct intonation) I see no problem with it...unless you think you might want to change the bridge some time in the future.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:21 am:    Wildfield, thank you. That was what I feared. Ginger   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 2:31 pm:    Ginger, If you didn't come across as an arrogant, long-winded know-it-all, I might be more inclined to help you out. But hey, you've got the answer you feared now, eh?. The Bear   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 6:10 pm:    Well, what I feared was an irreversible mod with holes in the top. If it is done on the wrong spots, you have a problem. And if you want to use another string gauge after some time, you need a whole new intonation, which is impossible with a fixed bridge. All the bridge can do after "pinning" it, is up and down. The damage to the solid spruce top of Wildfield's 2455, as described, was considerable. Missing all possibilities to intonate the guitar with different string gauges is a handicap for a buyer. But then again, an AK86 is not a 2455. As I said, I don't consider myself too old to learn. That includes being less long-winded. One way to learn, is to ask a lot. That's what I've been doing all my life. I wanted to "know it all", and I must say I still don't, so I keep asking. But one mustn't expect to get answers if one isn't willing to share one's own knowledge, which only consists of the answers of others. So sharing aswers of others is actually all I'm doing. I never pretended I invented the wheel, I just like to share the information with those who are interested that it's round. Not because I'm arrogant, but because all knowledge we have now is there because we passed it on. I'm aware that much of the passed-on knowledge is redundant for a part of the readers, so if it's boring to you, just skip it. Ginger   Wildfield Username: Wildfield Registered: 5-2005 Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 6:55 pm:    Hey Ginger, Not to side track this thread or anything but... I'm pretty sure my old Ibanez had a laminated top. If it was indeed solid spruce, I'm even more depressed now than ever before...although the fact that it had two dowels piercing its heart and soul, maybe I'm not depressed so depressed that its gone. Wow, when I bought that thing for $350, I thought my guitar teacher was ripping me off (not really but it seemed expensive to me). Then I sold it a few years later for $500 or $550 and I thought I was a genius. Now I see what they sell for on e-Bay and I feel like crying. By the way, it was basically an ES-175, gold hardware, 2 humbuckers, reddish to amber burst, L4 style tailpiece and Ibanez peg head. Bridge was a TOM so even though it was pinned, it had some fore & aft adjustability.   Sg Username: Sg Registered: 8-2006 Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 7:51 pm:    Instead of pinning the bridge, you can glue fine sandpaper to the bottom of the wood base. It won't go anywhere. I once pinned the base on my Gretsch, and the next time I took it to my local guitar guy, he taught me how I should have done it (then proceeded to un-pin it, fill the holes in the base and apply sandpaper...works great). SG   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 10:50 pm:    The gauge doesn't change the string length. That guitar has adjustable saddles so its no big deal. Sand paper doesnt sound like the right way to me but hey its your guitar. I know my Mandolin didn't come with sandpaper on it's floating ebony bridge. I've used all kinda gauges on it and never once had to re-adjust or move the bridge to execept. Maybe slite truss rod tweaks but thats it. What was done with the sand paper.Roughing up the underside or gluing it to the bridge?   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 5:00 am:    Wildfield, since you described your tailpiece as an L4 tailpiece and now added that all hardware was gold, I'm pretty sure you had a 2455 and NOT a 2355. (I have the laminated maple 2355m) Some time ago we discussed this beautiful L-4CES copy and Sixvsix wrote that his 2455 had a SOLID spruce top. The cheapest solid tops are pressed and the high end tops are carved, but even IF it was a pressed solid spruce top, drilling it means devaluation. What we saw several months ago, is that even a lacking or changed logo (Gibson inlay for instance) had devaluated the guitar in such a way, that the sellers got only $1,000.- for it instead of 1.8-2.5K in a minty all original condition. Maarten, a student of Pat a.k.a. Artfield, for instance bought one with a lacking logo for $1,000.- He had some doubts afterward, but I think he made an excellent investment, because the heart and soul of the guitar as you call it seemed untouched. Ginger   Sg Username: Sg Registered: 8-2006 Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 6:08 am:    The sandpaper was glued to the bottom of the wooden base with the grit side facing down. You then position the bridge where you want it and the fine grit holds it in place. My bridge was moving a bit when using the Bigsby and when I put it in its case. The worst thing that could happen (which hasn't with mine yet) is the sandpaper might dull the finish on the guitar under the bridge, but that is obviously less intrusive than drilling holes to pin the bridge. I suppose you could try just roughing up the bottom of the base to see if that is enough to hold it in place.   Petruz Username: Petruz Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 12:50 pm:    anyone ever tried two small vinavil (white glue) drops under the bridge? once dried it's hard enough to keep it in place, but not so hard to be removed later, just in case.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 11:29 am:    Searching for some Korina copy info, I found an old link that Ibanezfreak1960 posted in 2005: http://www.noahjames.com/vintagepage/copies2.html The 2455 was described as ES-175 copy, and the top as laminated spruce. So much for the "heart and soul" of the guitar. (Do you feel a bit better now, Wildfield?) About "pinning" the bridge by means of dowels under the bridge reminds me of placing a "stapel" - as we call it in Dutch - or "Stimmstock" as gipsy jazz guitarist Stochelo Rosenberg calls it. It is used to transfer the vibrations of the bridge to the back of the violin. In English it is called "sound post" or "soul post". But: a luthier normally places only ONE, not two! Poppa Munch will be familiar with it. I'm curious about his opinion on placing two of them and the "pinning" of bridges in general. Ginger

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