| Author |
Message |
Ng Tian Khean
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
I have a GB10 [1986], ES175 Copy[1974] and an AM200[1989]. I play jazz, mostly mainstream Bebop, and would like exchange opinions on tone of similar guitars owned by readers of this site. For me, I would rank my guitars thus in tone: 1. AM200 2. ES175Copy an 3. GB10. I never fail to marvel at how the AM despite not being a full-bodied Aschtop manages to produce the sweetest, fullest sound. (I use Thomastik-Infeld 0.12-0.54 Flatwounds} The ES175 Copy has a likeable woody tone. The GB10 is a disappointment compared to the other two -rather prone to feedback, and a mediocre tone.
Please share your experiences with me at khean@singnet.com.sg |
Harold
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
Hello Ng Tian Khean,
You have several very nice Ibanez guitars in your collection.
I'm wondering about the GB10. Does the GB10 have the original WOOD bridge?
Have you tried using D'Addario "CHROMES" Flatwound strings on the GB10? If so, what did the GB10 sound like?
The GB10 would be more prone to feedback because of the floating pickups. There is nothing to inferior with the guitars Top from resonating.
I have owned at least 7 GB10 guitars all of which had a fairly thick Top. I have found that the GB10 needs to have a fair amount of string tension to get the top resonating. Then the guitar produces a very good to be desired tone.
Regards,
Harold |
garry
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
So true about the string tension Harold!! I think the GB was designed with heavy strings in mind. I was using 11 to 49 round wounds and encountered feedback problems and ordinary sound, then l switched to 13-52 flatwounds played with the tension with the adjustments on the tailpiece, now l rarely get feedback and the guitar really sings!!!
George Benson actually uses 14-55 flatwounds on his guitars. Cheers Garry |
JohnS
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
OK guy, so how do you go about experimenting with the string tension? I assume that tightening down the screws on the tailpiece increases the angle over the bridge and therefore increases the tension. Should I slacken the strings at the tuners before tightening the tailpiece screws?
What am I looking for as I experiment? Brighter, duller sound; more sustain, more or less feedback?
Are there any particular reasons why the bass and treble side of the guitar should be set at different tension levels?
Do you change the tension if you change the guage of your strings?
TIA |
Mark Munchenberg
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
I can tell you something about string tension and archtops because my father builds archtops.
Where you have a thick top you need high string tension, as with a GB10.
Where you have a thin top you need light tension.
This is because you have to match string tension to how easy or hard it is to induce sympathetic vibration in the top plate.
A thin top vibrates easily, a thick top doesn't.
You will encounter bad tone on a thin top if you use heavy strings, and on a thick top if you use light strings.
So the formula is: Thin Top + Light Strings = Good Tone or Thick Top + Heavy Strings = Good Tone.
This is a simplification and only serves as a general guide.
Other factors you need to take into account are Scale Length and the distance from the saddles to the tailpiece. The greater these measurements are, the higher the tension (all other things being equal).
I would suggest with a GB10 that if you don't like heavy strings, try adjusting the tailpiece to maximise string length between it and the bridge. This should improve the tone quite a bit.
You may not know this but Thomastik strings are lower tension than other brands of the same guage. This is because they use a thinner core which is wrapped with silk before the outer windings go on. Other brands don't have the silk wrap.
Also important to understand is that on a carved top the thickness is not uniform as it is on a laminated top. It is generally thinner around the outer edges and thicker towards the middle. This creates a rigid centre section that can be likened to a speaker cone. The thin edges act like the compliant rubber/foam ring that surrounds a speaker cone. What you end up with is a large rigid plate, the vibration of which is controlled by the compliant thinner edges surrounding it. It is the relationship between these two elements which lies at the heart of making a good archtop guitar.
Even if you get this right, you still have to match it to sting tension, back plate vibration characteristics, and internal air volume.
This is why archtop making is an art, and tap tuning is so important when carving top and back plates.
Hope you find this helpful!
Regards,
Mark Munchenberg |
Jimi D
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
That, Mark, was the single most informative post I've read on this board all year. Great info!
Thank you :-) |
Guitar Tim
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
Mark, don't be a stranger to this site. Your message about archtops and string tensioning was excellent. With your expertise with archtop construction, I'm certain we could all learn more about our respective 'collections'.
Here are some topics I'd like to know more about:
1. Some GB10's have a split nut made of brass and ivoriod material. I believe it gives the guitar unique singing tones and sustain. Or is that the tensioning of the tailpiece in concert with it?
2. Any tips on adjusting the truss rods of guitars with three-piece necks vs. single-piece necks? (Other than to refer to a pro luthier)
3. I've been advised by a 'guitar tech' to never oil an ebony fretboard since it will absorb and eventually warp it in spots. I always thought a little lemon oil or fiddle-bright violin oil was a good conditioner once every year or so depending on how dry or moist your environment is.
4. What's your opinion of solid carved tops on archtops vs. laminated tops? Each has a unique sound, but some swear that only a solid top will give you the best tone. (Can George Benson's tone get any better?)
Mark, what do you and all of the other Ibanez players think?
Guitar Tim |
Seth
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
Guitar Tim,
You've raised some interesting questions. I'd also like to see forum contributors weigh in on the differences between carved and laminated tops. I've never owned a carved top archtop guitar, but I hope to one day. Some professionals seem to prefer a laminated box. Joe Pass, Jim Hall and Pat Metheney are all closely identified with the ES-175 (Jim Hall uses a carved top D'Aquisto these days I believe). What's your take, Tim?
As far as the bone/brass nut goes. . . Theoretically the nut should mostly effect the tone of open strings. I recently had my luthier replace the bone/brass nut in my GB10 with a compensated ivory nut. There's no obvious difference in tone or feel. However, string spacing, tuning, and lower register intonation have improved.
By the way Tim, my tech also warned me against oiling an ebony fretboard. Of course, others swear by their lemon oil. I've been oiling my Strat's rosewood board for years without incident. Have you used lemon oil on your ebony boards?
Seth |
Mark Munchenberg
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
Hi Guitar Tim,
I've recently corresponded with Garry Benson (another contributor to this site), and he asked about feedback and archtops. Here is what I wrote to him. I think it helps to understand the difference between carved and laminated tops. They are not the same animal so there is no point saying one is better than the other.
"Feedback is the Achilles Heel of amplified archtops. Remember that before electricity they were primarily designed to project straight out into the room, cutting through the brass and woodwind of an orchestra. This straight line projection is caused by the highly vibrant top and back plates moving in a push/pull manner.
Archtops behave quite differently to flat tops which generally sound good close up from all angles but dissipate quickly as the distance increases.
When electricity found its way to the archtop, feedback became a big problem. A guitar designed to be highly efficient acoustically is a nightmare when amplified. The carved top and back plates literally take off when even moderate volume is applied. The cure is to reduce the acoustic efficiency, either by thickening the plates (like on a GB10) or using a laminate top (like an ES175).
There is a limit to how much you can tame the resonance using these methods without killing the tone of the guitar. If you go too thick and stiff with your plates you lose harmonics and complexity, resulting in a dull fundamental tone and not much else.
Players of archtops have often stuffed them with foam and cotton wool to cut down the resonance. This has been done commercially on the LR10. I don't like this idea. As a player I prefer to work with the guitar as it is, feedback and all. If I'm playing too loud and the guitar is uncontrollable, I'll either get the band to play a bit quieter, or use a different guitar.
An alternative idea to cotton wool is to use a sound post like they use in violins. Gretsch are using a post in the Brian Setzer signature model. If anyone is going to get feedback its him!
In a guitar a soundpost works differently than in a violin. When used in a violin, the sound post acoustically couples the top and back plates together, and produces incredible volume from a small instrument. This works because the bow is continuously exciting the string, and the whole body begins to vibrate in sympathy. It works just like running your wet finger around the rim of a crystal wine glass. Simply plucking the strings does not produce the required energy to put the whole thing into vibration that bowing does. Ever plucked a violin? Sounds terrible.
On a guitar a sound post counteracts the natural tendency for the plates to vibrate in a push/pull manner. The post literally holds them firm and reduces feedback. it does not excite the whole body into sympathetic vibration because plucking does not provide enough continuous string energy.
My dad is experimenting with a removable soundpost for amplified archtops. This may give you the best of both worlds, acoustic efficiency when you want it, and resistance to feedback when you need it."
So take it easy, and keep strumming!
Mark Munchenberg |
Mark Munchenberg
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
Guitar Tim,
I think I only adressed one of your questions with the last post. To elaborate on the last post, the thing that determines whether a laminate or arch top is better is how loud you want to play. At low volumes a solid top is best tonally, but when you turn up a laminate is more controllable.
There are exceptions to every rule though like Ted Nugent for example. He plays hard rock at deafening volumes on solid top Byrdlands. Who knows how he does it?
Regarding nuts, I think Seth is pretty much on the money there. The most important thing with nuts is height, spacing, and break angle.
With trussrods, it doesn't matter what your neck is made of. ALWAYS adjust very slightly. By this I mean turn the nut 1/8th of a turn at a time. Check your action and make further adjustments if necessary. If the nut is real tight and doesn't want to move, don't force it. take it to a repair man. If you have to turn the nut more than one and a half complete revolutions and you still don't get acceptable relief I'd take it to the repair man (assuming your nut and bridge heights are OK). With all my Ibanez guitars I never have to turn the nut more than 1/4 or 3/8's of a turn to get the correct relief.
Oiling a rosewood fretboard OCCAISONALLY is a good idea. I too have heard not to oil an ebony board, however I heard this after I oiled mine. I don't believe it caused any harm though. Ebony is much denser and less permeable than rosewood. I really can't see how it can hurt.
Cheers,
Mark |
Guitar Tim
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
Great stuff from both Mark and Seth! Thanks for responding so thoroughly to my questions about fingerboard conditioning, neck adjustments, nut types and string tension.
Feedback:
I've experimented with feedback over the years on archtops (GB10; & ES165 primarily), semi-hollows (AS200; & ES335) as well as with good old solid bodied guitars (Strats; LP's & Artists). Each responds differently to volume, proximity to speakers, note frequency, pickups (humbucker, single coil; etc., etc) as well as the specific type of construction of the instrument as Mark so eloquently discussed. Since most solid body players don't have the luxury of maxing out the volume while standing in front of a Marshall stack, we usually encounter feedback while simply playing too loud on a given sustained low note. With semi and full hollow bodied guitars feedback is more readily accessible (wanted or not) and can be a real nuisance when playing live and loud.
The only solution I've found is to move away from the speakers or mute the low strings if any howling starts up. The GB10 tailpiece tension lesson of Mark and Seth works to eliminate some of the feedback and increases tone somewhat. I tried it after reading their notes. No such adjustment is available on any Gibson, so I'm left to howl-mute-howl with my faithful cherry red ES165. That's why it stays in the case so much. George Benson and Norman Brown seem to never encounter these problems when they play live and loud since they use one other simple trick. They mike their amps to increase sound rather than turning up their own volume! Result, no feedback.
Still loud and proud;
Guitar Tim |
Bassart1 (Bassart1)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 3:35 pm: | |
If you live in a northern climate then boiled linseed oil once a year is good for ebony as it tends to dry out and shrink.
A good coating, let it sit for 20-30 minutes.
Rub it off thoroughly. Wait 2 days.
Put on strings.
Learned this from many years with Alembic basses and Pollman String Basses.
Topping off with a coating of Lund floor wax won't hurt the Ebony either. |
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