How to get the PERFECT tone

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Edit Profile

Author Message Brutus1999 Username: Brutus1999 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 1:54 pm:    You CAN'T! That's because our EARS are different. As an "over 50 years old male", my upper end hearing (above 9,000 cps/hz) is fading out. Something to do with the tiny hairs inside our ears, I guess. So, I tend to turn the treble UP in order for radios, recorded music, etc. to sound "natural" and balanced to me. Then my wife comes into the room and turns the treble down because it sounds too SCREEEECHY to her. What sounds "balanced" to me sounds like too much treble to my wife and kids. What sounds balanced to them sounds a little too dull to me. Some younger folks also like the treble turned up high because that is what they are used to. I do not mean to say that there is no objective way to measure the different outputs from different pickups, body woods, neck woods, bridges, etc. Of course there are ways to objectively measure it. But when someone asks another person which sound the other person "likes better", we have to realize that the answer may not be objective. I love the sound of BB Kings Gibson--but is it the wood, the pickups, the technique, the quality of my car stereo, the settings on my car stereo, the condition of my own ears? It's all of them! So of course, ask other folks if they like the sound of a mahogany body better than a maple body, or this pickup over that pickup. There are ways to measure the differences, of course, and certainly ways to measure tonal range, distortion, output, etc. But that is a different issue from asking people "what they like". It's good to ask people "what they like", but just remember, everyone's ears are different. brutus1999 (who confesses to playing BANJO.....) Garyelcrrt Username: Garyelcrrt Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 10:40 pm:    quote brutus1999 (who confesses to playing BANJO.....) unquote garyelcrrt (who said, at least it isn't accordian) Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 8:42 am:    Better yet, as least its not a Bagpipe ! (ever try to play "Red House" on the Bagpipe ? Benito1300 Username: Benito1300 Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 9:22 pm:    well put, brutus! i saw the name of this thread and thought, "what a stupid topic," expecting someone to be declaring that their rig containing whatever guitar, whatever amp, and whatever effects gave them the end all, be all, PERFECT tone.. needless to say, i was pleasantly surprised by what you said. that makes a LOT of sense. oh, and i happen to have a brother who can rock the accordian quite well. you can check it out at www.myspace.com/gangotango the accordian is on the first track that automatically plays, along with some guitars and a fretless bass. don't be discouraged by the cheesy drum machine intro. it's actually a pretty sweet instrumental track aside from that. Dvsleeko Username: Dvsleeko Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 9:47 pm:    I used to "play" the Cello. Something about arched tops and f-holes drives me nuts. I was so bad that anyone forced to listen to my playing would have to be put into council-care. If you saw the movie "A Clockwork Orange" you know where I'am commin from. ?:^O~ Wow Benito, I never heard an accordian sound like that. Neat! Brutus1999 Username: Brutus1999 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 12:06 am:    Hey, cajun/blues/zydeco accordian rocks! I'm not too keen on the Lawrence Welk stuff, though (maybe it's what you listened to when you were young and happy....) .....I have had a little trouble getting enough sustain from my banjo--not sure why, though Bela seems to coax some pretty sounds out of it........ Phatphred Username: Phatphred Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 6:50 pm:    If you have problems with accordian, note that George Shearing started out on it. He learned it in his school for the blind. And don't forget, as the man says, Zydeco et al. Then there's the Bandoneon as in Astor Piazzolla and the whole Tango phenomenon. If you have problems with banjo, check out Bela Fleck and the Flecktones: watch out also for killer bass playing by Victor Wooten and manic percussion by Future Man. http://www.flecktones.com/ Keeping to the topic, in my view a half-decent musician gets his sound irrespective of the instrument he has at his disposal, because he is who he is and what he has become. Conversely, the same instrument will sound different under different hands. Check out the series of recordings at Maybeck Hall by many different jazz pianists. The same piano was recorded under broadly the same conditions, but sounded like a different instrument at the hands of each different master. As guitarists, we tend to rely too heavily on equipment to make our sound. Your sound will come out almost in spite of you. It takes others to hear it and you may be the last to know what you really sound like, because you just can't be objective about these things. Jamey Aebersold's jazz clinic's advice has always been that you should get the best instrument you can afford, but that it doesn't stop there. The rest is up to you. If the sound of your guitar / equipment inspires you and gives you new ideas, or you find yourself doing things you didn't believe you could do, that's good creative stuff. But if George Benson, John Scofield or Hank Marvin sound like themselves, their message to you and me is to sound like ourselves. Funkle Username: Funkle Registered: 12-2001 Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 3:08 pm:    Phred, I agree that tone ultimately comes from the musician, BUT, many top musicians, and some of the guys you sited are gear junkies. Maybe some were, and at some point stopped the madness and settled on something, but they still went through some process. They may have developed their tone in conjunction with developing their equipment choices. They work together. In the end, they may be able to get their sound on a any rig, but i bet they'd rather be playing something that responds the way they want. I think that every great musician, grew to where they are, and to some, experimenting with equipment was a very important part of that process. I was playing some high end tube amps the other day, and it was quite amazing how sensitive some of them were to dynamics and touch (and pickup or guitar changes). In the short time I played through them, I found myself playing differently. I was playing more dynamically and texturally, because of the equipment. As I have progressed, just as I have hit milestones in my playing abilities, I have also made equipment revelations. The first time I played a guitar that had a really convincing jazz tone, I was able the get into the "vibe" and swing more, and feel like I was playing jazz. Psychological? maybe. But music is psychological. Look at guys like Mike Landau, Alan Holdsworth, and Scott Henderson. They are constantly tinkering and have gone through truckloads of gear. I don't think they are going to stop any time soon. Funkle Username: Funkle Registered: 12-2001 Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 3:46 pm:    Back to your first post, I've been singing that tune for years. The difficulty is describing or qualifying tone is threefold: First: there are, as you said, too many factors to control - guitar, equipment, style, acoustics, what you had for breakfast and god knows what else. Second: Everybody hears different. Good tone is different to everybody. And there are different aspects of "tone" - the voice, dynamics, attack, texture etc.. different people focus on different qualities. To people may agree that a guitarist has great tone, but the reasons may be different. Third: There is no accurate way to actually describe or quantify tone. Language always falls short of the task. In the end, the only thing to do is listen and experiment. Reading the reviews at Harmony-central will get you nowhere fast. Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 7:46 am:    brutus i play tenor banjo and mandolin but guitar is my 1st love! Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 9:40 pm:    It's mostly a crap shoot. Any given tone is only perfect for one song at one location on one day. I suppose if you only play one narrow type of music and never vary your setup, you might achieve something near "perfect" with some consistancy. I play such a variety of crap that "my sound" is actually a bunch of different things depending on the place and set list. And, since I only get to hear it on stage, I really don't know what it sounds like to the audience! I typically worry more about my vocals than my guitar sound. Steve Regg Username: Regg Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 11:29 am:    The "perfect" tone is the one I haven't heard yet, but I like thickness and roundness (if that's a word), and clarity. If I could get fat sounding basses like Janos Starker playing the Bach cello suites, and a sweet top end like Itzak Perlman's violin, and a creamy overdriven sound that sounds a lot like Charlie Parker's alto, then maybe I'd be getting closer to an ideal tone. As it stands, if I can just avoid sounding like a tinny AM radio, then at least I'm heading in the right direction. Brutus1999 Username: Brutus1999 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:07 pm:    But Regg--even a term like "clarity"......if my 50+ year old ears are losing their ability to separate out sounds, I might prefer a crisp snappy bass to a "fat sounding" bass, because the "crisp, snappy bass" will not sound "crisp and snappy" (sounds like a breakfast cereal) to me....it will sound somewhat "soft and fat" (sounds like what happens if you eat too much crisp and snappy cereal). A snappy bass might sound to me what a fat sounding bass sounds to you! Seriously, that was my main point. We CAN measure tone, sustain, volume, overtone complexity, attack and other sound forms, and some pickups and woods and amps and speakers and walls (and techniques!) have a definite, measurable effect on those outcomes. Not to mention TONE CONTROLS!!! And it is good to understand that Super 58's and mahogany body give a "rounder tone" --slower attack, longer sustain--(all other things being equal) than V2 pickups and a maple body). But that is a very different point from saying "what we like".......since our ears are different. =============== I LOVE George Benson's sound, BBKing on "The Thrill is Gone", and Oistrakhs' violins on the Bach Double Concerto...but I still find myself fiddling with tone controls....(depending on whether I'm in the car, the kitchen, or the daily changing condition of my hearing depending on such things as the humidity, my sinuses, how early in the morning it is, etc.)........don't we all adjust tone controls sometimes? Garyelcrrt Username: Garyelcrrt Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:32 pm:    For a good example of tone that changes with every song, try Larry Carlton's newish CD "Sapphire Blue". He's got so many different tones going I suspect he hasn't used "Mr. ES-335" guitar exclusively... and every one of them perfect for the song played. Johns Username: Johns Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 3:02 pm:    Gary: I'll second listening to Sapphire Blue! LC was inspirng to watch perform! Phatphred Username: Phatphred Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 3:37 pm:    Ok, since you mentioned Larry Carlton, John, here's a link to one of my favourite contemporary jazz guitarists, Dave Stryker's website that has a picture with Larry, Pat Martino, Russell Malone et al at a party for Les Paul's 88th birthday. Go to photos & video and it's no. 13. http://www.davestryker.com/ You should be able to hear lots of Dave's music on that site automatically. A thin pretext for turning on any one who hasn't heard Dave before, but check out the pictures while you're there! Dave plays a Gibson ES347 most of the time, and includes a GB10 in his armoury. He's a super nice guy. And he's got tone. Understated, living, breathing TONE. Phatphred Username: Phatphred Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 3:40 pm:    Sorry, it was Gary who first mentioned Larry Carlton. Credit where credit is due - no offence meant. Regg Username: Regg Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 6:12 pm:    I have Dave Stryker's CD Big City, and I highly recommend it. Yes, great tone, and a very well recorded album. You're right Brutus, adjectives are destined to bump into each other at some point...most recordings sound too bright to me, so my sense of "clarity" might sound rather muddy to you. I was just attempting to express my particular oddball point of view. I do fondly remember tone controls, and the "loudness" button, but the funny thing is that my current line stage doesn't have any, so now I'm just a slave to the mastering engineer. :?) Brutus1999 Username: Brutus1999 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 7:40 pm:    Yeah--I remember that "loudness" button. There was also a button on the stereo called "Contour"...I think they might have been meant to boost the bass when the volume was turned down...........and since I can stand the sound of a banjo close up, and play mandolin also, maybe I'm a little more able to tolerate screechy, brittle tones! Funkle Username: Funkle Registered: 12-2001 Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 2:27 pm:    I have a few Dave Stryker CDs, and had the pleasure of taking a clinic with him and seeing him perform live that night at Yoshis, and I distinctly remember thinking his tone was weak that night. He sounds great on the albums, but his live sound to me had very little presence and confidence. This could have been due to some outside factor, his tone is great on the CDs. In contrast, I saw Larry Coryell at Yoshis, and he had an electric tone that shrill and bright, not my preference at all, but his playing had a very strong presence. Garyelcrrt Username: Garyelcrrt Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 7:02 pm:    Why should I take offense? Its not MY tone we're talking about LOL (and a good thing too!). And, anyway, if passion can't rule in music...(I can't think of anything bad enough to finish that thought). Funkle Username: Funkle Registered: 12-2001 Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 12:17 am:    Stevie Fryette of VHT has a good point of view: "The Truth About Tone I'm your basic musician, experimenter type. I surround myself with guitars, amplifiers, speakers, tubes, test gear...It's an amazingly creative atmosphere. In my semi-ideal environment, I've developed a few ideas that I'm sure I have in common with a lot of you. One that stands out right at the moment is this: Tone Is Not For Sale. I frequently see advertisements that portray "Tone" as some kind of commodity that can be bought and sold. To understand the flaw in that concept, you have to first understand where tone comes from. A while back, my wife put on an old record, kept the jacket concealed, and said to me, "What Johnny Winter song is this?" I gave her a suspicious look and answered, "That's Rory Gallagher." She smiled knowingly. The point is this: Every time you hear the unique vibrato of one of your favorite guitarists, the bend of the note, that essential personality, you recognize it immediately. It's an intuitive process that works on a physical as well as an intellectual and emotional level. This is my definition of "tone". Your tone is your personal signature. Like a fingerprint, it's part of who you are. But it's also just the beginning. He didn't originate the concept, but nobody more than Jimi Hendrix proved beyond the shadow of doubt that your amplifier is an integral part of your instrument. An extension of your guitar, if you will. To carry it a step further, you could even argue that his fingers via the guitar were controlling his amplifier. However you choose to look at it, few would argue the fact that this was a revelation that has sent legions of players on a quest. A quest not for the mythical "Holy Grail of tone", but the true relationship between tone, power, and expression with which you create your own tonal signature. For the last twenty-five years, I've been playing, tweaking, tuning, dialing...and cursing. Ten years ago it hit me like a ton of bricks. The only way I was going to realize my goal was to build my own amp. The frustration that set me on this course was simply knowing that nobody was gonna do it for me. So I decided to get busy. Ten years later, I'm still tweaking. Still learning. (Still cursing…) Still driven to overcome the challenge to create amplifiers that embellish and enhance the creative impulse. Instruments that give voice and expression to the essential ingredient hidden in your fingertips. Fact is, I play more now than ever before. And the more I play the more demanding I become of my instrument and myself. Sound familiar? At VHT, our goal is to produce a range of amplifiers unparalleled in quality, versatility and range of sound. The people here are a small but talented group dedicated to creating the kind of instruments that beginners and professionals are proud to own and use. Every VHT amplifier is hand built right here in our factory in Newbury Park. Each assembly and sub-assembly operation is triple-checked for accuracy, neatness and operation. I personally check, test, bias, play test and final inspect every single amplifier that leaves our factory. Every speaker cabinet is tested for proper, wiring, phase, frequency response, vibration, final assembly and finish. Our unique blend of top quality components, precision wound custom transformers, careful application of modern technology and strict hands on attention to every last detail produce amplifiers like nothing else you'll find anywhere. While considering the various models and features, keep this thought in mind: You already own your tone. It's something you're born with. Our objective is to give you what you need to develop your signature sound. To define that part of your art that sets you apart from the crowd. Stevie Fryette Guitartim Username: Guitartim Registered: 04-2001 Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 10:30 am:    The quote from VHT's Stevie Fryette sounds like what many of us hackers and pros alike seek in our personal 'tone quest'. Probably all boutique amp builders could say what Stevie said, but the proof is how we apply our skills to the various tools we use (i.e. guitars, amps, cables, pedals, etc.). But now I want to go out and try one of their amps...as well as Two Rock amps...and Bogner amps...and Victoria amps...etc., etc... I guess I'm old school (at least the 'old' part is true) in that tone comes from your soul, inspired by your environment, and forged by the application of one's musical skill. I totally agree with the Larry Carlton example mentioned previously. Live or on record, he's simply awsome. Just my two cents. Garyelcrrt Username: Garyelcrrt Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 11:00 pm:    I'll raise two bits - I agree whole-heartedly with the sentiment Mr. Fryette expressed, but if we all went out to invent our own amps, who would buy them? Which brings us right back to where we started. Trying to find "THAT" tone. Part of its spiritual, no doubt about it and the proof is, if you ain't got the one, you ain't gonna get t'other, because we don't know what "soul" is, let alone how to make some. But the physical part, there we CAN find some help. At a minimum, a place to start and a few wayposts along the way. So keep on talking about the gear, because every bit of info helps me move toward my personal goal of becoming that guy everyone says "oh, you know, he sounded just like that guy was in here the other day. Oh, you know, yeah...that's who he sounds like!" about.

Add Your Message Here Post: -Color- Black Red Green Blue Yellow Purple Orange Cyan Gray White -Font- Arial Courier Symbol Times Verdana -Size- Smallest (-2) Small (-1) Normal Large (+1) Largest (+2) Enter Item number: Username: Posting Information: This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here. Password: Options: Enable HTML code in message Automatically activate URLs in message Action: