ES-175 model. Lawsuit???

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Author Message Humbird Username: Humbird Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 11:01 am:    Hi there! My father bought it back in the 70´s and it still looks brand new, except for a couple of dings. I haven´t located any serialnumber on it, but the headstock is Gibson shaped, the neck is superslim. Is it a lawsuit? Any idea how much it might be worth? Daniel. NORWAY Humbird Username: Humbird Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:45 am:    ? Fg100 Username: Fg100 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 6:27 am:    If you post some pics it will help. Humbird Username: Humbird Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 8:25 am:    Hi! Okay, will try to fix pics! Aroee Username: Aroee Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 1:31 pm:    Hei Daniel, Jeg har en saann (sunburst) selv. Gibson type headstock og ingen serie nummer. Disse dateres fra 1972 til 1975. Har sett at de gaar for 8-10 tusen paa musikkweb. Paa ebay ligger de mellom 700 til 1000 dollar. Gitaren laater veldig bra men jeg synes halsen blir litt i tynneste laget saa jeg vurderer aa selge selv. Phatphred Username: Phatphred Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 7:27 pm:    Yeah, right. Humbird Username: Humbird Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 3:10 pm:    Yeah, who is this guy? Han er norsk, jeg vet hva han sa! (måtte tulle litt Aoree) Well, here are pics!!http://lagrebilder.no/show.php/3922_1753.jpg.html http://lagrebilder.no/show.php/3921_1752.jpg.html http://lagrebilder.no/show.php/3920_1751.jpg.html Humbird Username: Humbird Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 4:25 am:    Hello;) I have put out pictures of the 175-guitar. Feel free to watch, and give a comment on it! Regards Daniel. Aroee Username: Aroee Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 12:54 pm:    Yepp, den er helt lik min med unntak av stolen. Enten saa har den blitt byttet ut eller saa er det en slags prototype. Tror kanskje din er litt eldre ann min av den grunn. kan tenke meg 72-73. Ser ur til aa vaere i bra stand og om du finner riktig kunde saa kan du kanskje faa oppunder 10K for den. Alt avhengeig av markedet selvsagt... Jazzzbo Username: Jazzzbo Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 5:41 pm:    ya ya, get the turkey lol Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 4:50 am:    Whatis this: has the Muppets' Swedish Chef started to collect Ibanez as well??? Harry Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 6:31 am:    Well, it's pretty obvious: this is a pre-lawsuit ES-175 copy, because of the headstock shape. So it's not younger than 1976. Ibanez switched to Guild headstocks by the Fall of 1976. The lawsuit over the Gibson ‘open book'-shaped headstock was filed in Philadelphia in the Summer of 1977. (Too late!) And as far as I know, Guild never sued Elger/Ibanez, this company had other troubles on its mind, since founder and president Al Dronge died in 1972. So actually, there are only pre-lawsuit exact copies and post-lawsuit less exact copies, or better Gibson headstocks and Guild headstocks for this model, because Guild headstocks were already taken into production before the Gibson lawsuit was filed in 1977. Well Harry, about your jazzbox... It seems to be a 2355 model (not a 2355m!). Pitty, the original ebony bridge is missing! This tune-o-matic type is a typical modification for country-rock guitar players and techs. They want to be able to intonate string by string by means of a screwdriver. Intonating string by string is easier than intonating a whole compensated ebony bridge at once. The latter is a precise job, but it can be done. All you need is a good pair of ears and patience. My advice: make it original with an compensated ebony bridge. The value of these instruments is increasing. Argus in Switzerland raised the price about 100 euros for the 2355 sunburst 320 euros for the 2355m natural flame maple since January 2006. 2355 sunburst : €1450,= 2355m: €1670,= Huh... it's not an egg... it's a pingpong ball! Alive and cooking! Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 2:51 pm:    Gemberbier Did I say this was a 2355M?????? Or was that in some other thread?? And I even don't recall "my" ES 175 copy, neither a 2355 OR a 2355M; I still don't have either of both in my collection, so what are you talking about? Harry Aroee Username: Aroee Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:08 pm:    pre lawsuit Ibanez guitars were made before 1976, which is why the guitar in topic is made before that year. Also, this guitar has no serial # which takes it back to 1975 and under. I have the exact same guitar, only with an original tune-o-matic bridge. They sound great but the neck is a little too narrow and slim for my taste. Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 8:57 pm:    Sorry Harry, This wasn't meant for you but for Humbird. I thought you were the first poster instead of the last. I love the Muppets by the way! I just wanted to point out that 2355m are always natural flamed maple and not sunburst as someone recently suggested in an ad. This misleading information could cost the buyer a few hundred euros more! And Aroee, I wouldn't be too sure that there were no Ibanez models made with the open book headstock in the first months of 1976. As Smooth points out, all headstocks had been replaced by Fall 1976, and Sixvsix would have corrected him if this weren't true. About the bridge you could be right. But what's more, this might give us a clue for the production year. The catalogue of 1970/'71 shows an ebony bridge; The catalogue of 1972 is not on Smooth's site, but I expect an ebony bridge; The (early?) catalogue of 1973 shows an ebony bridge. The (later?) American catalogue of 1973 shows a tune-o-matic bridge; The catalogue of 1974 shows a tune-o-matic bridge; The catalogue of 1975 shows a tune-o-matic bridge; What's exactly known about the first months of 1976? HELP! The catalogue of (Fall?) 1976 shows an ebony bridge with a Guild headstock. So this guitar was produced somewhere between spring ‘73 and first months of ‘76. So Humbird, forget about changing the bridge, or at least save it in the case, because it might be original, though it looks a bit cheap to me. So, that's set straight. Humbird Username: Humbird Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 12:46 pm:    The bridge has been replaced (don´t know when) by my father due to wear and tear of the old one (unless the small saddles I found at home are the originals, it was a tune-o-matic on it). So, there are none guitars that are lawsuit?? I was a bit confused.. It was bought before 1976. Thanks for all the answers! Funny with the norwegean confusion! Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 6:55 pm:    Humbird, It's a matter of definition. The point is: There was a lawsuit threat by Gibson about the open book shape of the headstock. Ibanez reacted by way of changing their headstocks. Preparing the lawsuit took a lot of time (Chicago lawyers you know), more time then it took Ibanez to change the headstock shape of their Gibson replicas. The changing of the headstocks didn't take place at once, because they had a lot of half-finished products in stock, also necks with open book shaped headstocks. Now the new headstocks, the company chose to use, were derivatives of the Guild headstock, which was longer in the middle than a Gibson headstock, which had a dent in the middle. So they couldn't correct the shape with the jigsaw. They were used as long as they were in stock. The moment they ran out of them was of course different for each model. The actual lawsuit was filed in the Summer of 1977. The decision to change the headstocks in order to avoid the lawsuit took place in 1975, but the actual change in the production didn't take place at once. So even if someone would say that an Ibanez guitar is pre-lawsuit, all he actually says is: "It from before the summer of 1977!" And this says nothing about the actual shape. What matters is, whether the headstock shape is either "Gibson open book" or "Guild". Gibson sued Ibanez and Guild didn't. So the "Gibson open book" headstock has been officially forbidden by the Court of Philadelphia, but this happened at a moment in 1977, as Ibanez was already out of all its "Gibson open book" headstock necks. So the old headstock shape was forbidden afterwards, the new headstock shape wasn't. Your 2355 has the old forbidden Gibson headstock shape and is therefore a more exact replica of the Gibson ES-175 than my 2355M with an L76XXXX serial number, which is a less exact replica, because it has a Guild headstock. If you define a "lawsuit model" as "an Ibanez guitar with a headstock shape against which Gibson threatened to take legal steps (read: "open book") YOUR 2355 IS A "LAWSUIT" MODEL. Smooth and Sixvsix would probably call it a "PRE-LAWSUIT", and they would call the guitars with the Guild headstock "POST-LAWSUIT" because of the headstock shape, NOT BECAUSE OF THE DATE OF THE ACTUAL LAWSUIT (summer 1977). But there is not an exact date, that all Gibson replicas that Ibanez made got Guild headstocks. That would have been a waste of excellent material, and Japanese companies are thrifty. They would never throw away hundreds of even thousands of good necks, unless they had received an actual citation. Meanwhile Ibanez kept the Gibson management dangling: "Yes, Maurice Berlin-San and Norton Stevens-San, we'll look into it... patience, Maurice Berlin-San and Norton Stevens-San... patience..." In 1980 after a fruitless lawsuit and a few really bad production years, in which cost reductions had destroyed the old quality level the Norlin company got rid of Gibson, which they had acquired in 1969. They hadn't been able to compete against the price/quality rate of the Japanese manufacturers. They were sick and tired of it... who wouldn't be...? If you want to avoid the confusion, it's better to call the model after the actual headstock shape: either "GIBSON OPEN BOOK HEADSTOCK" or "GUILD HEADSTOCK". So yours is an "Gibson open book headstock" model. Mine is a "Guild headstock" model. But it is good to know, I was right about the bridge not being original. In order to improve the sound quality and the value of your guitar you should try to find an original Ibanez tune-o-matic replica bridge from 1973-1975. If you can't find one, an ebony bridge is also an option. In 1973 both bridges have been used. On a guitar without a serial number, using an ebony bridge can't be much of a problem. From that moment on, it will be an early '73 model. It's the easiest way to give it an original appearance and a good sound. Keep the guitar in the family and pamper it! Greetz, Ginger Ale Humbird Username: Humbird Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 6:22 pm:    Will keep it! My father used it for several years, and he allways took good care of it! There is a lot of him in it.. Thanks for the answer! Daniel.

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