I think a GB10JS is as playable and s...

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Author Message   Guitar Username: Guitar Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 5:06 pm:    hi musicians! what i always wanted to know is: in some threads here, i can read that most people do declare that other people have to pay attention when buying a gb10 - do not buy a gb10js from a korean factory! why do you do this? have you compared the playability + the sound + the frequency range? i own a GB10JS, have a studio with fine british harbeth monitors etc. i played 3 gb10 natural + 2 gb10bs here in some german shops for an hour and more in the last 15 years. before buying my 1998th gb10js i lent 2 natural gb10 + the gb10js and recorded them directly with a professional audiomedia soundcard from digidesign and i could not find a significant difference in my 32.000 band EQ or via monitor and ear. and the playability + intonation + sustain was the same too. yes, its nice to have better looking tunerplasticknobs + potiknobs, but i do not miss the "George Benson" overall and some nicer better binding for a +1000 euro/$...   Guitartim Username: Guitartim Registered: 04-2001 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 5:47 pm:    Hello Guitar~ Guitar Tim here. (No relation). If you enjoy and appreciate the lesser GB model made in Korea, that Ibanez pulled off of the market after a short run and poor sales, and that has shown an abysmal resale value compared to other MIJ models made during that period, go for it. Play it and enjoy it. Interestingly enough, Hoshino's latest batch of Korean and Chinese Artcore models are the latest attempt at what the GB10JS started...a budget model archtop, aimed at a different demographic than the higher quality Japan GB series. The main difference is the overall quality of the former GB10JS was sub-par at best, even compared to the latest Artcore models, that are terrific bang-for-the-buck guitars. Hoshino learned its lesson after the market turned its back on the 'JS' model. As to your comments about the JS' tone compared to MIJ GB's...Tone is very subjective. But market response to value is pretty straight forward. If it's a good value, it will sell. If it is not, it won't...and the product will be pulled off of the shelves until better consumer value is achieved. I get the impression your comments were of the 'stir things up' mode. That's fine. But don't be disappointed if you do not find anyone taking the bait here. Enjoy your GB10JS 'jazz standard'. You might have an exception to the ones I've seen and played over the years. And welcome to the   Fingersmcoy Username: Fingersmcoy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 7:04 pm:    I think you might be on to something Guitar.I had an AS80 made in korea and the guitar was really just as good as any model ive played.Somethimes it has to do w/ the heard metallity.We all play follow the leader so to speak.I think it really comes down to personal choice.No two ppl. see the same things, nor do they have the same abilities(dexterity)If you gave the best quality made guitar in the world to a person who had arthritis im sure his or her experience would be different than someone who had full command of the hands and fingers.*This is not ment to offen anyone,its just human nature,and im just as prone to these human conditions as everyone else.   Bigmike Username: Bigmike Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 11:00 pm:    Hey GuitarTim, Thanks for saying so diplomatically what I was thinking... BigMike   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 11:11 pm:    Hey Tim, Why don't you unload both barrels next time? Cheers, Mark   Guitar Username: Guitar Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 6:33 am:    1st a correction to my posting: it is exactly an "32.000 band FFT-Analyzer/Spectralanalyzer". hello guitartim (& hello to munch + bigmike, you are nice guitartim-applause people. every forum has them - is guitartim your guru or do you have your own opinion and argumentation?) ok gt, i did need a little bit to translate your well formulated statement. i am german + not a native english speaker, but i will try my best to explain my arguments. 1st again: i did compare as a player + professional musician and not as a collector. the 2 guitars have little material differences, diff in handicraft, but no significant diff in the musical result: playability + tone/sound/frequencies-they-produce! - your 2nd argument is that my comparison is "subjective", because i compare them by tone. did you read my argumentation closely - obviously not! you try to move my argumentation on measurement in the subjective edge with subjective arguments like "Market response..." - what is market response? is phil collins a higher value than jack johnson? "Selling" = good value is the most subjective and ignorant argument that i know! my argumentaion is based on facts = measurement of 3 guitars and comparison of the data with technical equipment that does not lie + listening to 3 guitars on high-quality most neutral monitorspeakers based on 10 years musicproduction + studio experience. - your 1st is a market argument: "short run + poor sales" = "abysmal resale value compared to other MIJ..." - short run: yes; poor sales - do you know the exact sales numbers of the ibanez company or is your knowledge based on rumours? and resale values are not an argument for the playability + sound + comparison of a guitar for a guitarplayer and this is my input for my posting: i do not speak as a collector, i speak as a player. if i turn your argument and say: is a gibson LP or a es-175 better in tone than an ibanez copy because of the resale value? why we are here in this forum? did you ever met a companys product that is the cheaper version of a so called "high-end"-value product and if you compare it you turn out that they fullfill the same use and the only difference is blink-blink? guitartim, your argumentation is based on rumours + subjective arguments that have nothing to do with what comes out of these 2 guitars in frequencys/tone/sound. your arguments are based on ignorance (selling = good) + promote a wrong information: GB10 sound better than GB10JS. i am part of a forum here in germany for high fidelity equipment and we, the measurement + active monitor fraction, have a name for arguments like yours: Voodoo!   Guitartim Username: Guitartim Registered: 04-2001 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:18 am:    Guitar~ I was right. You are here to stir things up. Cool, we need some of that here. I still hold to my opinions expressed previously. They are based on my personal experience playing several GB10JS models over the years...trying to like them...as a long time fan of Ibanez, as a PLAYER, not a collector. Yes, I now collect a few good guitars, but I'm a player first and always. I make no excuses for having good taste in guitars. The guitar buying market responded the same as I did...by turning their backs to the JS and investing in the Japan made GB10's. Maybe that is why it is the longest running signature model Ibanez ever produced. Every JS I played fell far short of the mark in overall quality. That is my opinion; you are entitled to yours. I did not take away your right to enjoy your GB10JS. So please do not take my opinions so personally. No, I did not have any sophisticated instruments to measure the sonic differences between the two models. But after over 40 years of playing guitar I can tell when an instrument is poorly crafted. When I spend my hard earned cash for a guitar, I want it to be worth it.   Benito1300 Username: Benito1300 Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:24 am:    hey guitar, i can see where you're coming from in some respects. i'm also a player rather than a collector, play an artcore as73 with alnico retrotron replacement pickups as my budget won't allow room for higher end models. does the guitar works well for the way i play and fit into what i do economically? yes. but would i be justified in going on a collectors forum touting it as equal in quality to vintage japanese models, and even going so far as telling others that their 'voodoo' on higher end guitars is based on 'ignorance'? i don't think so. it's those differences in materials and 'handicraft' that make the difference for some players, hence they choose to use more high end/vintage instruments if it's the case that they can afford them. everyone owns (and covets) the guitars they do for different reasons, whether that reason is collecting, playing, etc. and simply coming on a forum with the word collectors in its title and trying to stir up a ruckus by demeaning them and the equipment they choose own by differing standards is problematic. i'm glad your js works for you. keep playin'! i've never seen a gb10js before, either. have any pictures you could upload here? -ben   Wildfield Username: Wildfield Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:14 pm:    Guitar - thanks for the comments and analysis of your GB JS. I think folks can appreciate your review and you are pretty clear about your test methodology - that's great! Like some of the others who have already commented, I do not have the sophisticated equipment to extract empirical, measurable data that can be used to determine the tonality or potential tonality of a guitar. I just have my two ears (which admittedly are getting less sensitive due to years of loud music) and personal knowledge of what I expect to hear and feel from a guitar. I've played several JS's hoping to find a compelling reason to purchase a GB at such a reasonable price. I have also owned an AF120 (possible produced in the same factory as the JS?). Both guitars sounded horrible to me; just horrible. They also felt awful to my hands - the neck of the JS was definitely a different shape as compared to my GB100. Of course this is a very subjective analysis on my part, but I prefer to buy a guitar based on what my ears and hands tell me as opposed to what specific empirical data might indicate. Appreciate your contributions and information - it's great to read. I'd keep the flames and personal attacks out of your posts - they only take away from your other more intelligent comments. Best regards, Darryl   Acetan Username: Acetan Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:55 pm:    I understand that generating positive opinions on the net regarding Korean made Ibanez guitars like yours or AS120's may increase their re-sale value down the line. This forum is just the wrong venue for it. There are too many members here who know better. Sorry.   Bigmike Username: Bigmike Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 1:24 pm:    Guitar, Well you certainly found a large group of OWNERS of older Ibanez GB-10s to argue with. And your approach DOES ring the TROLL BELL here - I know and have had GuitarTim to my house and he's one of the most amazing guitar PLAYERS I've ever met. AND a gentleman of true character. So my advice to you if you want to hang here AND get along is to cool it with posts that ring of personal attacks. We're a mighty smart and discriminating group here. Some of the members have huge guitar collections spanning all brands and vintages. Some are collectors and some, like Tim, are mighty talented players. Some of us like myself have small collections but of high quality. So to tell us (in a way) that we don't know WTF we're talking about (in so many words) when we say FROM BUYING and PLAYING experience that nothing tops the older Made In Japan Ibanez George Benson GB-10s (I've owned a beat 1978 GB-10N and now own a pristine 1981 GB10N) is like pissing into the wind, spare yourself the embarrasment. If it makes you feel better to present your argument as you did, then Mission Acomplished: you did. But I think from a build standpoint (quality of build, quality and beauty of timbers used, attention to small fine details) the older Made In Japan Ibanez GB10s really are the very best. As GuitarTim stated: Korean instruments attempted to fill a niche, unfortunately when people think Ibanez GB-10 they're wanting the best and settling for a Korean made guitar with ALMOST the same look and ALMOST the same quality of timbers just doesn't cut it. You can look hard on eBay and GBase and find a deal on an older Made In Japan GB10. Why would you settle for something LESS... As GuitarTim so graciously put it THE MARKET SPOKE.... So listen up dude... And don't come to Our House talking smack about members unless you plan on getting Bitch Slapped next time... BigMike long time Ibanez GB10 owner and Friend of GuitarTim   Guitar Username: Guitar Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 2:55 pm:    thanks for your different comments on my posting, guitartim/ben/darryl ! and ok lets cool it down: i never did want to stir something up here. may cause on my english abilities + the 'tone' of my prefered german iforums. and yes, it's a collectors place here. i try to focus on arguments. with "vodoo" etc i wanted to put my arguments to a special point of narration, but i think its better to keep it cool... you know, i am a not a 100% pure measure freak, but over the years i figured out, that a good portion of physical knowledge is good to avoid 'emotional mistakes' like buying something that is fine in the first 10 moments. let me explain that with an excurse: if you start mixing your own music, some start with their homeamp + boxes from their record player or (very bad) with their headphones and one day you realize that the result sounds different on all other music-engines untill you know that you need straight, as-neutral-as possible equip to mix your things best for ALL 'musicsource-players', because normal home-equip makes the sound beautiful by cutting freq and lifting others - thats what is called "sounding" and that sounding is it what manufacturers do to their home-music-equip products for the consumers who go into a shop and compare hifi-speakers + amps etc. it's very easy to measure that. and if you want to avoid it, you have to buy active speakers for example from genelec, k+h etc who deliver the technical curves + specs etc of their speakers output and integrate possibilities to fit a speaker or amp with the room where it stands to avoid this problems. and in the end: if you mix music on this equip, you can be sure: if it sounds good, it sounds good out of your home or studio. so, if you extrapolate or generalize this on guitars + amps, you realize that there are only a few acoustic amps who present your source (guitar) as it is. its common sense that each guitar sounds different on each amp + each amp sounds different with another guitar, except you have very fine handicraft + exact the same potential and wiring etc on your knobs and pu's. to avoid this prob (if you like to compare) you have to take a fine monitorspeaker + neutral amp and test all guitars you like on this setup. and then you explore that each source (in this case: guitar) sounds very obviously like it has an 'integrated EQ' because each one "sounds" very different. (you know, i really really enjoy hanging around with some guitarfriends and comparing and checking guitars with guitaramps, but i know it is only the fun, not the truth - i do not stir up here :o) and there is much more in this thing: think about the endless discussion about transistor vs. tube - the tube amp is "sounding", but thats what 'we' want at home and on stage; and all together (source: guitar + diff amps) is the reason for this fine fun wonderful neverending story about finding, playing and collecting guitars. with this little excurse in mind i hope you understand the reason for opening this thread. i was checking here for a good es-175 copy and besides read some postings about my GB10JS. its okay if Gtim and others draw a distinction in between the model and can hear it - i can not hear + could not measure it significant. just wanted to tell it here. and to go a step in your direction: yes, it feels a little bit better to play a natural gb10 when looking at the nicer materials (i replaced the orig bridge with a gb10 inlay-one ;o). and double-yes: to screw this poor vol/tone-knobs of the js is definitive boring.   Aaron Username: Aaron Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 8:23 pm:    If I can just mention which I don't think anyone else has....The GB10js has a rosewood fingerboard as opposed to the GB10's Ebony which anyone who knows guitars will tell you creates a different sound. This is where the JS really comes undone in my view....although a different sound and definitely not in the league of any of the other GB series I don't think they sound that bad and even with the cheaper hardware I'd prefer a GBjs to any of the other Korean Ibanez Jazzers I've played so far. Would I buy one??? probably not!!! REAL GB10's are just too good to compromise on!! Cheers! Aaron   Aaron Username: Aaron Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 8:30 pm:    Forgot to mention the JS also has a rosewood bridge which also contributes to a different sound along with rosewood board!   Petruz Username: Petruz Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 7:27 am:    guitar, just a little and simple consideration that maybe you've overlooked. this is a forum born and (well) raised by persons who had as their MAIN purpose the search for quality instruments and NOT brand/boutique ones. the world is full of gibson/fender freaks willing to pay several times the price of ibanez guitars, just for the sake of having the "right" logo on the headstock. as long as i know this forums' community does not have this attitude. we learned, from experience and practice, to praise and value instruments that not long ago - and in many aspects still now - were considered "cheap copies" or "eastern trash". some of us were aware of QUALITY thirty years ago, when we began considering the "cheapo" japanese junkies (hey guitar, how old are you?). in my opinion you just drammatically missed the point from the first word onwards.   Johns Username: Johns Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 10:44 am:    Anybody think that this Korean GB10JS going for $1,175.00 was "about right" or not? Ebay Item #180097940118   Tristan Username: Tristan Registered: 3-2005 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 11:21 am:    Johns, I'm absolutely positive about that the highest bidders weren't aware of it being a Korean made..   Talajuha Username: Talajuha Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 4:52 pm:    How can you tell it is Korean if you don't see the label inside? TRC, fretboard without GB's name? I'm too lazy to read the whole thread Juha   Petruz Username: Petruz Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 8:36 am:    talajuha, the korean made GB10JSs had rosewood and bridge fretboards, apart some other downgrades in the tailpiece and tuners. maybe they had scarf joints and korean pickups, i'm not sure. to me it's not fair not to point out these "little" differences when someone sells one...

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