| Author |
Message |
Ibnose
Username: Ibnose
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 5:50 pm: | |
Greetings fellow enthusiasts. Here is one for sale locally @ $650 Canadian. I don't know the year ( I'm new to all this detail stuff ). Can any of you lads tell me if this is a worthwhile purchase?
cheers
Ibnose |
Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 6:34 pm: | |
To my knowledge the Joe Pass Emperor II is an Epiphone, not an Ibanez.
There was an Ibanez Joe Pass JP20 model, but the names Emperor, Emperor Regent and Emperor II are typically Epiphone.
The name Joe Pass was added to the Emperor II in the beginning of the nineties to promote it a little more, but it was an existing model from the eighties.
In Euros that's €431.81
That's a pretty normal price, but not a real bargain. It was about their "going price" when they were new. I was offered one by our local luthier for ƒ900.- just before I found my Aria Pro II L-1000 (a real Super V model which is a combination of Super 400 and a L5CES, also issued under the name PE-180). The Epiphone Emperor II has a shallow body, just between thinline and L5.
I think there are better options, when it comes to jazz guitars.
Ginger |
Ibnose
Username: Ibnose
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 6:50 pm: | |
Hi Ginger Nice to hear from you again.I will prompt the seller for some more info and get back to the link. Hope you Inbanezers are all doing well.
all the best
Ibnose |
Ibnose
Username: Ibnose
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 7:08 pm: | |
PS I have just checked the ad again and the wording has been changed to Epiphone. But I thought i had read somewhere that Ibanez had done a Joe Pass model for a couple of years in the early 80's. Does anyone know if this is true?
Ibnose |
Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 8:19 pm: | |
That's what I wrote: The Ibanez Joe Pass JP20, which is a collectors piece. Not as good a George Benson GB10 though, but an interesting guitar.
http://www.ibanezrules.com/catalogs/us/1986/p41.jpg
As you see: totally different.
Ginger |
Petruz
Username: Petruz
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 3:28 am: | |
it seems that the emperor II was designed by the same (formerly ibanez) luthier that created the JP20; and that he copied not the JP, but bruce forman's FG100 custom, also made by him. so, the emperor II is a kind of ibanez FG copy!
in youtube there's a jazzist (mattotten) who uses one to great effect.
i once saw a MIJ emperor II which looked and sounded terrific. but i don't know if the MIK ones have the same quality standards. |
Petruz
Username: Petruz
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 3:37 am: | |
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iIsJyNXarw&mode=related&search= |
Wildfield
Username: Wildfield
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 10:14 am: | |
Ibnose,
Here is a JP20 that is on e-Bay right now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT &viewitem=&item=220053563184&rd=1&rd=1 |
Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 5:58 pm: | |
It's important to know that the JP20 has a PLY SPRUCE top, it's NOT SOLID. Most jazz guitarists are NOT enthusiastic about the JP20. It has a famous name, but not a famous construction.
The $1700.- and 1900.- the seller mentions are ridiculous.
There are two in RusselW's database. The highest price registered in it is $1100.-
It wasn't updated for quite a while now, but I think you may add 20% maximum, when that highest price is a year or two old. So (that would be about $1320.-).
For that money, I'd say: "try to find a George Benson model GB10, or a nice ES-175 model: 2355, 2455 or 2616, or a Howard Roberts 2453 model."
I know, it's all a matter of personal taste, but I would want to test this one and not buy it online, because I heard some negative feedback of a fellow jazz guitar player/ collector who has a very open mind about guitars and played them all (the guy who sold his Johnny Smith 2461 to Kees Dee in Amersfoort).
After trying it, I would probably come to the same conclusion as he did.
Ginger |
Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 6:09 pm: | |
It already says that in the scan you linked above about the laminate top. |
Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 6:44 pm: | |
Oops, I missed that one, Freak.
Point is: what's the use of spruce, when it's not solid?
The critics were about the whole construction: neck, joints etc. The one he tried at the Veenendaal Vintage Guitar Event just didn't meet his standards.
Ginger |
Wildfield
Username: Wildfield
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 7:36 pm: | |
"Point is: what's the use of spruce, when it's not solid?" -Gemberbier
What's wrong with a laminated spruce top on an amplified guitar?
Darryl |
Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 9:30 pm: | |
Nothing in my opinion! |
Bigmike
Username: Bigmike
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 9:47 pm: | |
Hey Guys,
The "dig" if you will on the JP20 is the placement of the pickup. It's not in the normal neck position nor the normal bridge position... A lot of people want a more "bass" sound and prefer the neck positoning of say a GB10 AND the flexibility of a "treble" pickup down near the bridge.
Years ago there was a seller on eBay that was moving two artist owned and autographed guitars. A GB12 (or 100) and a JP20. Both owned by the artists they are named for and given to the seller. The seller had documented photos of himself and the artists backstage, photos of the artists using those very guitars on stage and letters from the artists. EACH guitar was exceptional in woods and construction - Artist quality examples. THE weird thing about the JP20, it had a mini humbucker attached at the neck (ala GB-10) that was painted black and was not noticeable lurking in the dark part of the sunburst finish. So the player had the mini-humbucker and the normal JP20 pickup. Was this a JP requested mod - or did the seller do that after the fact ?? I don't know.
I posted here about those auctions YEARS ago but never was successful finding my threads. Anyone with too much time on their hands should search for them...
} |
Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 10:11 pm: | |
If you're using laminated wood, you have the freedom of choosing maple, which offers more variations: birds eye, tiger striped, quilted.
Spruce offers only one pattern, straight lines, which is good to uphold the illusion of a solid spruce top, especially on a natural finished guitar. On a sunburst I would choose maple, which as a top layer is harder and more resistent against small dents etc.
But I don't think we would hear a difference. Laminated wood reduces feedback problems. So that's good.
But I see in the choice of spruce for the top layer no other motive than upholding an illusion.
On my Aria L-1000NT (aka PE-180) they did the same thing, but there it worked out better because it's a natural.
No big deal... but there are better guitars than the JP20, and certainly for $1900.-
Ginger |
Wildfield
Username: Wildfield
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 1:16 am: | |
Ginger,
Thoughtful answer - thank you.
Although I'm not personally a big fan of the JP20, if I were rich, I'd buy it, if for no other reason jazz guitar nostalgia.
I heard Joe Pass several times and in several different venues playing that guitar. Personally, I always thought it sounded horrible. Be that as it may, his playing surely transcended the JP20.
As Bigmike has already mentioned, I think the tone of JP20 is due to the placement of the pickup.
Anyways, to each his own as far as I am concerned. If someone wants to buy the JP20, more power to 'em. If they like the sound, the feel and/or the looks, I say go for it. Why not? |
Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 8:17 am: | |
Whats the illusion? The catalog says spruce ply. So I don't understand the upholding an illusion motive theory. |
Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 10:11 am: | |
Disregard that last post Ginger I understand what you mean. I had to read your last post over again and missed it the 1st time. |
Ibnose
Username: Ibnose
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 6:41 pm: | |
While we're talking about jazz boxes can I get opinions on the AF120? Mine is a 2001 -- is the top solid spruce, are the pups super 58s and how do you folks like this particular guitar? What are the pros and cons?
thankyou
Ibnose |
Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 9:13 pm: | |
As long as it is NOT a 1994 or early 1995 (by Samick) you have Super 58's in every ArtStar. So with a 2001 guitar you're pretty safe.
About the top:
The catalogues and pricelists just say SPRUCE.
If it had been solid, they would have meantioned it.
The pros of a laminated top: less feedback when used amplified, less vulnerable for cracks and other damages than a solid top.
The cons of a laminated top: less resonance when used as an acoustic guitar.
The pros of Super 58's: F...ing good humbuckers. Wax potted well, no microphonic feedback, just pure sweet jazz sound.
The cons of Super 58's: don't know, they are what they are. (So there's a lot, they are NOT. They're not single coils, they're not P-90's, so if you're NOT looking for humbuckers, don't buy these, 'cause that's what they are.
The pros of a full acoustic body: it is big, it looks good, it contributes to the traditional jazz sound.
The cons of a full acoustic body: it is big, it gives more feedback problems than a thinline.
The pro's of a 20 fret rosewood fretboard with MOP/abalone/MOP inlays: the rosewood is not finished and is more suitable for sweaty hands than finished maple. It looks good and it plays quite nice.
The cons of of a 20 fret rosewood fretboard with MOP/abalone/MOP inlays: the rosewood is softer and is to be considered of a lower quality than the ebony fretboard of the AF207. Not bad, but not the best either.
The pros of a rosewood bridge: it gives a typical traditional jazz guitar resonance. A bit mellower than a metal bridge.
The cons of a rosewood bridge: the intonation of individual strings cannot be adjusted. You must install it very precisely. If you want to correct the intonation of one string, you change the intonation of all other strings. (It's a matter of comparing all 12th fret normal tones with their harmonics. Let go of the idea the a bridge is placed parallel to the frets, like a bridge with moveable saddles.)
Pros of the brand: It's an Ibanez and of better quality and more collectable than a more recent cheap brand like Richwood or something. The price is lower than that of a Gibson jazzbox.
Cons of the brand: It was not as cheap as a Richwood or Crafter. It's not as desired as a Gibson, so the selling value is lower than that of a Gibson.
Pros of Ibanez made in Korea: they were cheaper than MIJ Ibanez. The second hand prices are sometimes very interesting if you're looking for a good guitar for not to much money.
Cons of Ibanez made in Korea: The early MIK Ibanez were made by Samick. This company almost ruined the reputation of Ibanez guitars. Meanwhile they produced Vantage guitars that were sometimes distributed through the same channels as Ibanez. In 1994 Vantage acoustics were the most sold country guitars in Holland.
Some collector consider all MIK Ibanez guitars to be inferior guitars and are not particularly willing to pay for them, even if they were made from May 1995 by Cort, who made excellent guitars for Ibanez (like yours). This is due to a lack of knowledge and experience.
Pros of the sunburst finish: It always looks good. It's a classic. Almost everybody likes sunburst. It's easier to sell than a custom colour. (Who wants a blue jazz guitar?)
Cons of the sunburst finish: It may hide little flaws in the wood under the dark part, which in case of a natural finish is impossible. Naturals just gotta be perfect.
Pros of a black pickguard: It will not start gassing out. It looks quite allright on a sunburst.
Cons of a black pickguard: a bound sunburst pickguard (which might start gassing out) looks even better. So you will alway be tempted to replace it (like I did on my AS120). If you do, it's better to keep the guitar in a stand and not in a case.
Important:
ArtStars made by Cort are keepers. You won't find the same quality for that money. Most people who sold one, still have regrets that they didn't keep them, because what people pay for them is often not enough to buy a guitar of equal quality.
Well, I think that's about it, I guess.
Ginger |
Ibnose
Username: Ibnose
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 5:09 pm: | |
Hi Ginger That is a terrific summary of the guitar. Thankyou very much indeed. I was planning on keeping this guitar because of the quality and price. I paid $550 Canadian which is about Euro360. I still need to get the guitar tweaked (new strings probably .11 flat and intonation etc) but have not done so yet because my wife still responds disapprovingly when I talk about guitars. So that topic has been laid low for the present. Thankyou again
Ibnose |
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