Factory's that produced Artstars in K...

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Author Message Ratfinks3 Username: Ratfinks3 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 4:36 am:    Can someone give me the factory names that produced Artstars in Korea during their production years? Helping a friend date his newly Ebay acquired AS80. There are no letters such as C or S in front of the serial numbers. Thanks Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 6:27 am:    Neither are in mine, Mike. Until about May 1995 they're all made by Samick. They produced the AS80 in 1994 and a few months of 1995, with round horns (Mickey Mouse ears) and a narrow headstock and Super 50 pickups. So that's about 16 months production of the worst MIK AS guitars. Wenn Cort took over production, they left it that way except for the pickups, which they replaced with Super 58's. They made them this way from about May 1995 until the new collection with sharp horns started in 1997. So we're talking of about 32 months of Cort Mickey Mouse ears with narrow headstocks and Super 58's. Then from 1997 on the pointy wolf ears started, still made by Cort, but with a change in their concept, maybe because the customers associated Mickey Mouse ears were with bad pickups. They produced them this way until 2001. I don't know whether the f-holes stayed the same from 1997-2001, since I have only one AS120. Before 1994, there were Artstars, but not AS80 or AS120 models. An example is the MIK ArtSTAR AM50. The production started in 1987 (when the high end models were made by Terada in Japan). The AM50 was in fact meant as a lower budget guitar, so it was a logical step to have it produced in a cheaper way in Korea. Their pickups are referred to as STANDARD HUMBUCKING PICKUPS. They also did this for the AS80 in 1994. So this could be the unpotted Super 50's. For the reading of serial numbers, read the SERIAL NUMBER thread of Captain Ibanez. BTW There is no C or S in front of the serial number of my AS120 either, but with the wolf ears and the wide headstock, it's obvious that it's Cort production. (Of course the high end ArtStar AS200 with wolf ears and wide headstock is made in Japan). So you only need that S or C when the guitar has Mickey Mouse ears. If its missing look at the first digits, then you know the Year and Month. Greetz, Ginger Johns Username: Johns Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:19 pm:    Ginger: I'm curious, where are you getting all the info on factories used and production dates from? Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:25 pm:    I would think that the mickey mouse ears were a batch of bodies that were laying around as old stock and the were sold off to Hoshino cheap, used up then the Ibanez style horns used on the newer models. Just a guess thats not too far fetched for Ibanez. Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 6:46 pm:    Johns, first I must emphasize that I have not the complete picture of the 1987-1993 ArtStar AM50 yet. But it's logical that when Ibanez moved high-end semi-acoustic production to Terada, a low-end production location had to be found. Cheaper than Terada... so they ended up in Korea. I have found no proof that it was Samick, so I do some litte inbetween Google research right now and yes, I have it: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:HPXjsj8lvpMJ:www.thedwarf.com.au/forum/view topic.php%3Ft%3D15037%26view%3Dprevious%26sid%3Da3642723c526494627bc75d46169bea4 +Artstar+AM50+serial&hl=nl&gl=nl&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a Serial number Y009090180 was made at... Captain what have you got there? ah yes the Yoojin factory. So from now on I an you know that in 1990 the ArtStar AM50 AV was made at Yoojin factory. (Hypothesis: between 1987 and 1993. And you all can start shooting, that's science). So ALL THE INFO is IMO a little too much. If you read my post carefully, you see that my answer is actually only about the AS80, AS120 (and AF120), because they are parallel production. What I do I combining a couple of facts from 6 sources: 1: The serial number thread of Captain Ibanez, which I would like to see further perfectioned (and I know you are still bothering about a growing list of serial number riddles yourself), but for the moment it's the best source available. 2: My own catalogues and pricelists 3: The catalogues in the service-download of the German distributor 4: The catalogues and pricelists on Ibanez Rulez 5: The catalogues and price info on Jim Donahue's website 6: Info from my own instruments and of instruments of fellow members, they shared with me, partially on the forum, partially by e-mail. What was crucial in this proces, was an e-mail of a fellow member about a Mickey Mouse eared AS120 with a C5 serial number with May as production month. This combined with info of other members that have AS120's from 1995 with an S serial number, leads to the logical conclusion that Cort production didn't start later than May 1995, and that Samick production didn't end later than April 1995. So, that's pure logical deduction. It stands until someone comes up with a Korean AS with a C serial number from let's say April 1995. Until now this didn't happen, so the "May 1995 hypothesis" still stands. But feel free to shoot at it with valid info (pics of neck, body and label). ------------------------------------------------- Now Freak, for the bodies I must say that I don't know if they were old stock of another brand laying around at Samick. What I know, is that there were white Epiphone Sheraton II and that there were white AS120's with Mickey Mouse ears and bad Super 50 pickups in 1994-1995 as shown in the USA catalogues on Ibanez Rules. So, you COULD be right, but to be shure one should measure all dimensions of the white AS120's and the white Sheraton II. So who has them both, or one of them and knows where to find the other? BTW The bodies with the wolf ears were used on the Aria Pro II Titan Artist (TA) models even before 1994. There might be a connection there too. Like you say it's just guessing for now. Perhaps JD knows where these bodies came from. Ginger Hazy Username: Hazy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 9:31 pm:    Ginger, Did the Epi Sheraton IIs have the bad Super 50s also? I never thought about it; but, it makes sense, since Epi had to get them from somewhere. Rick Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:16 pm:    Well, it wouldn't surprise me, if the pickups came from the same factory. What I know is, that the Epi humbuckers are perhaps the most-replaced humbuckers around. Most players think they suck, and you can find them often second hand in music shops, on the internet in auctions etc. The prices are low: €10-€20. But I never bought the Sheraton II, because they raised the price 45% within a few months. So I was pretty pissed, when I came back to buy it in 1988 after showing it to my mum when she came over to visit me a few months before. I was so pissed that I bought a MIJ Fender Stratocaster with a Kahler Spyder tremolo after I graduated. A far better guitar by the way, built by Fuji Gen Gakki. It's still in mint condition. Right now, I'm very fond of the Super 58's in my AS120 and I'm happy I didn't buy the Epi then. The Sheraton II's improved since then. But the prices went further up too. List price: about €895.- What I find very good on them is the neck construction (laminated maple) and no scarf joint, while the DOTs have the typically Korean scarf joint headstock attachment which is clearly visible. The price difference is enourmous too. Ginger Ratfinks3 Username: Ratfinks3 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 3:12 am:    Ginger, thanks for the intel, my as120 has a C before the number and also small headstock, small F holes, Mickey Mouse Horns and Super 58's. The AS80 I wrote about has all the above but a large headstock and super 58's. Looks like the 80 we are trying to date is a transition guitar I guess. I did measure the thickness of the necks on the two, and the 120 neck was a couple mm thiner (flatter) at the 5th fret and all the way up to the body. Thanks Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 9:15 am:    Mike, 1) The AS120 Could you give us the first four digits (after the C) of your Mickey Mouse AS120 serial nr, please? (I'm not behind my e-mail system now). -------------------------------------------- 2) The AS80 Just the number of characters and first four digits of the serial number is enough for me... BTW You aren't talking about the modified blond one with 5 speed knobs on Ebay for $689.- are you? ('cause that's British and way overpriced) http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-1751-2978-71/1?AID=5463217&PID=1802666&mpre=ht tp%3A//cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D190059453512 I was bothering about that one last night. It looks as if they were indeed out of necks, started the production of the new necks and used what was left of the Mickey Mouse bodies. I would like to see a picture of the label... I guess it later than August 1995, because then they looked like this: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-1751-2978-71/1?AID=5463217&PID=1802666&mpre=ht tp%3A//cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D160058595295 And for those who want a bargain there is this one with a very very reasonable BIN at $279.- (a later Cort with wolf ears) I think the date could be wrong, but it looks all original and it's a sunburst with a masked scarf joint: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-1751-2978-71/1?AID=5463217&PID=1802666&mpre=ht tp%3A//cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D270065305573 ------------------------------------------------- 3) Thickness of necks According to my friend and luthier Harry (no not our Harry), necks are never exactly of the same thickness after they've been sanded and finished. BTW, I thought you had two AS120's, one early Cort and one later Cort you liked the most... Greetz, Ginger Fingersmcoy Username: Fingersmcoy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 6:29 pm:    Ginger- I think you answered a question for me that, been sticking in my brain for a while now.I always wondered why you could play 10 guitars of the exact same model and brand and all ten will be a little different,(in one way or the other)No two models are exactly alike, is really the bottom line. Ratfinks3 Username: Ratfinks3 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 12:18 am:    Ginger the S# on my 120 is C509071 and I had two AS80's and one AS120. I sold one of the 80's that I regret, but I'll have to get the numbers off my friends to send you when he gets back from england. This is the one we are trying to date. It's not the 5 nobber on ebay. Looks like my 120 body with a large headstock. That's why I thought transition. Usually the round horn, small F hole models have the smaller headstock. I agree with you on the neck issue. That is the main part that is sanded by hand. I guess my sander got a little sleepy, cause the neck on my 120 is incredibly thin from the 1st fret to the 15th, is the same exact thickness. No cracks or fingerboard lifting yet. Can you confirm for me the year on that one. I think you said 95 from Cort. I do notice a big difference in the tone with the small F hole. One big puzzle...There is a small 1/4 X 1/4 brace in the body just under the horns and it is routed to go completely through the block from side to side. Why did they route a square hole through the block for this brace is the big question. If it was for support only, why not just use two shorter braces???? Have you ever seen that? I haven't and I've had a lot of S/H guitars. Top line and bottom line. Never have I observed this. It also has the small audio taper pots, and the green .023 caps. I'm guessing the small pots to make it through the smaller F hole. I tried placing a large CTS pot in the F hole and it would not make it. The taper is the same on all 4 pots. Audio. They are all factory installed. No aftermarket. I do get less feedback with the smaller F holes. I have not measured the bout yet to compare with my 2001 body on the AS80. Can I get your measurments on your 120 when you get a chance? Just the body (all). I'm just trying to see why Ibanez changed the size. I heard through the grapevine it was because of a threat from G due to the bodies being the exact same size. I don't have a 335 anymore, (sold it since the 120 played and sounded better), to compare that history. Thanks Mike Ratfinks3 Username: Ratfinks3 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 12:42 am:    Ginger the S# on my 120 is C509071 and I had two AS80's and one AS120. I sold one of the 80's that I regret, but I'll have to get the numbers off my friends to send you when he gets back from england. This is the one we are trying to date. It's not the 5 nobber on ebay. Looks like my 120 body with a large headstock. That's why I thought transition. Usually the round horn, small F hole models have the smaller headstock. I agree with you on the neck issue. That is the main part that is sanded by hand. I guess my sander got a little sleepy, cause the neck on my 120 is incredibly thin from the 1st fret to the 15th, is the same exact thickness. No cracks or fingerboard lifting yet. Can you confirm for me the year on that one. I think you said 95 from Cort. I do notice a big difference in the tone with the small F hole. One big puzzle...There is a small 1/4 X 1/4 brace in the body just under the horns and it is routed to go completely through the block from side to side. Why did they route a square hole through the block for this brace is the big question. If it was for support only, why not just use two shorter braces???? Have you ever seen that? I haven't and I've had a lot of S/H guitars. Top line and bottom line. Never have I observed this. It also has the small audio taper pots, and the green .023 caps. I'm guessing the small pots to make it through the smaller F hole. I tried placing a large CTS pot in the F hole and it would not make it. The taper is the same on all 4 pots. Audio. They are all factory installed. No aftermarket. I do get less feedback with the smaller F holes. I have not measured the bout yet to compare with my 2001 body on the AS80. Can I get your measurments on your 120 when you get a chance? Just the body (all). I'm just trying to see why Ibanez changed the size. I heard through the grapevine it was because of a threat from G due to the bodies being the exact same size. I don't have a 335 anymore, (sold it since the 120 played and sounded better), to compare that history. Thanks Mike Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 8:49 am:    Confirmed: C509071 is CORT 1995 September, guitar nr 71. I never even looked at the bracings inside, or at least I don't remember doing so. But I think it was used to relieve the arched top and back and support the rims during the glueing and drying under pressure. I think they started with a strong symmetric body frame in order to avoid collapse and/or asymmetric shape when the body is tied together to keep it under pressure. As you know, I didn't realize at first that CTS pot shaft could be too thick. I just thought of the quality of the pots. I did the reverse operation (Japanese pots in a Gibson the Paul) once. Of course I had no problem, because the shaft was thinner than the diameter of the potmeter hole. But I didn't like the sound and I managed to "operate" the original CTS and get its axle end back in the nylon. So that one is original again. When I heard of the diameter problem, I went looking for the brand of the OEM potmeters in Japanese guitars like Ibanez and Yamaha. It's NOBLE. I think of several reasons for Ibanez to change the body shape of the AS120. 1) the original Mickey Mouse ears were associated with the not so successful Samick production of 1994 and the beginning of 1995. 2) Cort made a Mickey Mouse ear model called "The Source", that was sold for ƒ895.- while the AS120 made in the same factory was ƒ1595.- so it was a wise decision to create some distinction. Who would be prepared to pay 40% more for the same guitar shape from the same factory? And believe me, those Cort Source guitars with Mighty Might Vintage Buckers were good. A friend of mine had one which he had upgraded with golden Grover machineheads and an expensive service job by some expensive guitar goeroe. It was a sunburst and had a beautiful flame maple body. He sold it for ƒ1250.- second hand years ago (about €550.-). 3) It's better to give your guitars their own face between all these cheap Gibson clones, like Challenge from EMD (Now their brand is Stagg). So if you change the flagship (AS200), then it is likely that guitar player who are attracted by it and can't afford this MIJ AS, will pay about 50% for a new Korean look-alike without flames. So the answer is distinction, distinction and distinction. I don't think it has anything to do with sound quality. Your Cort Mickey Mouse sounds allright, doesn't it? Ginger Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 4:42 pm:    Here is a riddle, you are walking through the dessert on A100 mile journey. On the way you see 100's of camel turds that pretty much look the same. Question is, did the same camel produce all of them or could there be more than one camel. Substitute the word camel for factory and turd for guitar and you may have an answer hidden there Grasshopper! Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 7:51 pm:    What's the idea? Trade one white slave for two guitar factories? Saddle them, ride them to Europe, trade one factory for a '94 Weir reissue and ride back on the other one? I guess the answer is that it would take a big •••! Haven't you got any riddles of a more academic level? BTW: Michael Palin made creative use of camel turds in this book, which is a must when you're planning to trade white slaves. http://www.epinions.com/content_132697263748 Now... Michael has a little problem with the authority of the King by the grace of God, who's on his search for the "Holy Grail" And now for something completely different: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgsG_nbU8j0&mode=related&search= Enjoy, Ginger Hazy Username: Hazy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 8:02 am:    I'm interested... Are the AS120 Samick guitars of the 1995-era, in your opinion, bad and inferior because of the pickups only? Are there structural issues with the Samick-produced guitars? Are there wood issues with the Samick-produced guitars? I keep seeing inferior and bad when others describe this production run of AS120s but all I have ever seen in the way of evidence is the microphonic pup issue. What is the full list of issues..could someone list them in one spot for easy reference? Thanks, Rick Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 9:42 am:    Fingers and I invited everyone who owns an AS120 that doesn't satisfy him or her to bring it to our orphanage. Until now noone did. Most criticism I found is even about all Korean models, and from people who never owned one. You and Fingers both mentioned the pickup issue. I KNOW OF NO WOOD ISSUES ON THE SAMICK PRODUCED ARTSTARS. If you saw me using the word "inferior" referring to the whole guitar I must have or should have used quotes or double quotes. I you don't run to the most expensive pickup stand in the shop, the pickup issue can be solved under $100.- Solutions vary from do-it-yourself wax potting to Mighty Might Vintage buckers ($29.95 each) to Korean Super 58's ($49.99 each in 2004) Two days ago I wrote to Fingersmcoy (quoting some old posts): "Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 06:19 pm: That's an easy one: Super 58's. Now there are roughly 4 different kinds of Super 58's: 1] Japanese Super 58's with 3 adjustment screws; 2] Japanese Super 58's with 2 adjustment screws; 3] Korean Super 58's with 2 adjustment screws; 4] Chinese Custom Super 58's with 2 adjustment screws. Nr 1 and 2 are the most expensive. Nr. 1 is not suitable, unless you drill an extra hole in the pickup suspension. Nr. 2 is suitable, but as I mentioned quite expensive. Nr. 3 is good and cheaper (standard in the Cort built Artstars) Nr. 4 is even cheaper but according to Ibanezfreak they're not AlNiCo but ceramic. There is a thread somewhere on ICW where Freak mentions the list prices of all of these pickups: Let's do a search: ------------------------------------------- Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 01:04 pm: I emailed one of my contacts at Hoshino USA and here are the list prices on the Super 58's currently available.. Japan 3PU1J158G1 Neck $95 Japan3PU1J158G2Bridge $95 Korea 3PU1C158G1 Neck $66 Korea 3PU1C158G2 Bridge $66 China 3PU1H58NG Neck $44 China 3PU1H58BG Bridge $44 ----------------------------------------- OK, but these are gold. Then there was this one in the same thread: ------------------------------------------------ Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 12:34 am: "AGR have you priced all of these and if you have can you give us a break down of all 3 versions" Ibanezfreak, I bought my Korean 58s back in 2004. At the time, I paid $49.99 ea and the Japanese 58s were closer to $100 ea. I checked pricing on the Chinese 58s earlier this year through the local guitar center. They quoted me $29.95 ea. Maybe someone made a mistake? Your pricing would seem to be more accurate. As far as actually taking out my 58s from the AF105 and checking for wax potting...I have not done that yet. However, I have seen Chinese 58s sold on Ebay and they didn't appear to be wax potted. I'll let you know how it looks during the next string change. "Or would the Korean Super 58s in fact be Mighty Might Vintage Buckers?" Gemberbier, your logic may be right on the money with that one. Wouldn't surprise me at all. --------------------------------------------- The Mighty Might Vintage Bucker hypothesis wasn't verified yet. But their list price is $29.95. In an AS73 I wouldn't use pickups of the $100.- price level. Besides, the Koreans sound just as good. If you have the opportunity, take your multimeter and compare the Mighty Mights with the Korean Super 58's. Look if the Vintage Buckers are wax potted. If you're lucky, $60.- is all you need." See if you can improve your sound for a few bucks if you're not satisfied. If there were any wood or fret issues, you would have noticed them. It's your guitar. Ginger Hazy Username: Hazy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:05 am:    Ginger, I asked because these pickups are the best sounding HBs that I have - after the wax potting. They have that Filmore West honk and bite and I wouldn't swap 'em for any others. Playing wise, it's also one of the best guitars that I have and I would specifically buy another S5xxxxxx serial number AS120 because of all the positives. $0.02, Rick Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:53 pm:    So, from your experience we can conclude the basics of these Super 50's are good. They were just not finished. But how many tried to wax pot them, how many spent hundred of dollars and euros on new pickups and how many just concluded that "Korean Artstars are bad inferior instruments"? Shared knowledge can save a lot of money or prevent us from selling good semi-acoustics for a song. So buy the Mrs. or your mum a new deep fryer and use the old one for wax potting jobs. When no Mrs. or mum available buy a recycled one for a few bucks. It was quite amusing to see you frying your pickups, and very instructive. Thanks for your $0.02 They're worth hundreds of bucks. Ginger Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 6:21 pm:    Where is the Tylenol honey? Hazy Username: Hazy Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 6:41 pm:    Exactly, Ginger. Microphonic pickups are fixable. The question is: How do they sound? To me, they always sounded great. Get the deep fryer; but, get your chicken from KFC... Rick

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