How do you folks learn songs?

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Author Message   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 9:42 am:    I'm in my mid-40s... I grew up first learning to read music and play classical piano in the early '70s. I started in 2nd grade, had a teacher and weekly lessons... very serious stuff. Then I made a transition to the trumpet (again, classical) later in grade school, and have had a life-long musical and social life with the trumpet revolving around bands, quintets, orchestras, etc. I picked up the guitar in camp one summer as a young teen, learning chords from cheat sheet diagrams and some instruction. I never became a guitar hero or anything, but I can hold my own with rhythm acoustic guitar. This has been another life-long thing, but mostly private. Never any serious bands or anything... Ever since I learned the basics, I sit down with an album / cassette / CD and replay measures of a song over and over until I figure out the chords and the strumming. Is that what you do? I think it's a function of the pop/folk songs I like that I can do this. Complex stuff like jazz or classical guitar obviously is out of reach to me, but I've gotten enormous joy over the years just learning the stuff I love to listen to. Recently, I've gotten the bug to acquire more acoustics, and have enjoyed talking with many of you on the site. It's an honor and pleasure; thanks! The Ibanez stuff we talk about here is within reach financially, and it's a lot of fun researching and thinking about what I want. What about you?   Petruz Username: Petruz Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 12:36 pm:    chazmo, with a classical background like that you should probably read music very well. guitarists are not so brave doing it, anyway there's tons of books with full sheet (pentagram) music for guitar, from classical to pop and jazz.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 4:32 pm:    Petruz, Indeed I can read music, but that's not how I've ever learned anything on the guitar (well, other than the lyrics and note length). Is that how you do it?   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 11:01 pm:    I can read Treble Clef, but cannot translate it to guitar. I played trumpet for 10 years before migrating to guitar. Most of the cover tunes I can play have been learned by the method Chazmo describes. Some have been with the aid of Tablature. However, we operate in a different way in my band. We usually start with a lyric sheet having the chords printed above the words. One we get comfy with the basic song then we work out the arrangement. The Bear   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 1:33 am:    Hi Chasmo, I learned to read music to about Grade Two theory a few years back. I have probably forgotten more than I remember by now as I never use sheet music as an aid to learning or playing songs. I learn from listening to music with a guitar in my hands and a finger on the repeat button of the CD player. Using this method I can zero in very quickly on the key, riffs and chord progressions. As far as more fancy chords are concerned, I tend to use a bit of educated trial and error to get the right ones. For example, I know that lots of swing and rockabilly music uses 6ths and 9ths. So If I'm hearing a chord that is an A of some description in a rockabilly tune, then I'll give a 6th or a 9th a go. Nine times out of ten it works! Cerain chords have a distinct sound such as that E7#9 that Jimi Hendrix was so fond of. Again, from experience if I hear something like that in a song, even in a different key, I'll give the old 7#9 shape a go and again, most times it works. I don't get too much into jazz stuff, so I can't say whether my method will work so well with all the different chord extensions and fragments those guys use. However, if you can follow a bass line, often the proper chord extension uses the same harmony note as the bassline underneath the chord. As for learning lead guitar, if the notes start going by too fast, I've got no hope! However, I tend to work out the solos one note at a time. Again, educated trial and error comes into play. There are certain phrases, patterns, and note groupings that get used a lot and you learn to recognise them straight away E.G: a Chuck Berry approved double stop or the use of harmonised thirds etc. I've got poor knowledge of scales and modes. I suppose that if I knew this stuff better my learning of lead guitar would be quicker. Cheers, Mark   Fg100 Username: Fg100 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 5:58 am:    I would just add, you can hear whatever you use/play.... so, if you play a lot of some type of chord/scale, you eventualy get so familiar with how it sounds and works (in a chord, in case of a scale or single note. ex.: a rased 4th in a major 7 chord, or the rased 9 in a dominant chord) that when you hear it, it'll be like listening to your name. You don't need to think about what letters you use to write it anymore (as when ou were learning how to read and write). So, I would say if you want to broaden your vocabulary (sounds you can hear, recognize and play, etc) just start by using/playing one at a time. Look for songs that use that type of mode/harmony/intervals whatever... or compose your own.., learn them from sheet music/tabs/educated guess and transcribe a lot! It gets easier and easier as you do it.   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 9:16 am:    I got to about grade 2 and then dropped out. After that, it was my earholes. six   Hackneyslim Username: Hackneyslim Registered: 2-2006 Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 4:38 pm:    I am an illiretate when it comes to reading music, and pig-lazy reading TABs, so I was rather chuffed to find something called Power Tab on the net. I am sure you already know that this is a bit of s/ware that presents you with both standard TAB and normal sheet music but also plays it back to you through your sound card. This allows decadents like me to utilise a minimum of skill in at least three areas to concoct some facsimile of a tune. It also exports MIDIs, which I can hoy into Cubase; I am in fact better at reading a graphic representation on a MIDI editor than any other form of music. Sigh. Carnegie Hall is a long way off.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 10:33 pm:    Wow, great stuff, folks!!! Really enjoying your thoughts on this!   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 10:57 pm:    wow, i'm an old schooler. chazmo. i put the the tune on a tape and thrash it out till i've got it. i can read bass clef about like a first grader spells. TB   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 4:30 am:    Hi Chasmo, This thread has inspired me to work out one of my favourite songs of all time.....Whichita Lineman. Man its hard to hear whats going on with all those strings on the Glen Campbell track, but I have finally come up with what I believe to be the right chords. There's plenty of Maj7 and Min7 stuff going on in there. A bit tricky for a simple minded rock'n'roll fool such as I! I have started working on the instrumental version by Johnny A. Man what a nice piece of guitar work that is! He changes things around with the chords a little bit making it simpler. The trick is getting the melody lines and chord grips working together - not easy! If you haven't heard his version he has an MP3 sample on his website at www.johnnya.com It's beautiful! By the way, I googled for tabs on this song and they're all wrong as usual! Thanks Chasmo! Mark   Tubescorcher Username: Tubescorcher Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 3:54 pm:    I used to do it the old fashion way. Sit down with the song and figure it out. I'm doing some unplugged stuff now with some songs I haven't played before. Because I don't have the time to figure them out I go to: www.chordie.com to get the general idea of what's going on. You can tell which transcripts are wrong quickly but most have been spot on when you find them.   Talajuha Username: Talajuha Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 3:22 pm:    Slowly ... very slowly Juha   Djobar Username: Djobar Registered: 7-2007 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 3:29 am:    I'm with Tubescorcher, i learned with my ears. However, if you're doing the cover band thing it's best to have as many tools as you can at you're disposal. Check out: www.ultimate-guitar.com. They have Powertab, Guitar Pro and regular chord charts. Don't take everything you see for the gospel though; some will get you in the ballpark and some are spot-on.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 4:10 pm:    Juha, you're just like me. great answer! Thanks for the tips on these sites, folks! This is great. I'll be doing some research. I want to learn some new stuff. I performed Sheryl Crow's "If it makes you happy" yesterday with a great group of rockers, and now I'm sorta hooked.   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 4:45 pm:    MySpace has become a valuable reference for me. My wife I worked out the vocals for "When Will I Be Loved" yesterday using this: http://www.myspace.com/stoneponeys Yeah, I know, it's a crime nobody in the band has any of the Stone Poneys CD's... The Bear   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 8:50 pm:    I started on piano at 6, got to John Thompson 6th grade & said screw this. I learned to read music, however. Took up french horn, but no joy there..that instrument is for congenital OC constipated types. Finally found my voice with the tuba in 7th grade, and I have played it professionally for 35+ years. I believe that drummers & bass players are the only guys who always have fun playing music. The guitar was always an avocation, I have never tried to apply the same discipline to it. I don't want to, the guitar is always fun to me & my tuba is more like a job. It's only fun at showtime. I'm a natural at the tuba, but I'm basically a hacker on the guitar. A man should know his limitations. Aside from the easy stuff...CFG, GCD, EAB, DAE etc....I STEAL whatever I can. I never dance, I'm watching somebody's fingers instead. I do have a good memory. And I am not above taking advantage of human frailty...buying a loadie a bottle or whatever. Hey...at least I'm honest. Fact is, the history of popular music is 98% stealing other people's ••••, & 2% true inspiration. I just do it for personal satisfaction, and (usually) not for personal gain...so I do not feel (too) guilty about it. It never comes out the same anyways, because the last thing I ever want to do is sound like anyone else....even if it were possible. So my advice is to STEAL every lick you can, & make no apologies about it. It's traditional. No man is an island, and everyone learns something from someone else...by hook or by crook.   Cmangeot Username: Cmangeot Registered: 4-2005 Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 8:21 am:    Im 30 yrs old now, started at age 5. Learned by ear, with slight influence from scale books. other than that, I feel that learning with a mix of 70% ear, and 30 percent theory, just for structure, will produce a great result.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 11:00 pm:    Tube, guys, So I went to chordie.com and from the tab I was able to learn John Mayer's intro to "Why Georgia, Why?" Awesome! Who'd'a thunk to use the thumb for the low G! These are great references, guys!!! Thanks for the suggestions and thoughts. Ubetcha, cool thoughts on the biz. I tend to agree that the most fun is had by the amateurs, and I'll count myself among them. I know quite a few professional (classical) musicians who have achieved real station in life, and it's a surprisingly uncomfortable experience for many of them. You'd think they had it made (and they do), but they don't see it that way...   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 2:48 am:    "Who'd'a thunk to use the thumb for the low G!" Seriously? You never heard of a "cheater" G? Ya'll must be "highbrow" players... The Bear   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 9:32 am:    Bear, I'd definitely heard of it, just never used it. In my case, I learned a lot of rhythm guitar many, many years ago, and y'know it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks. ;) No cheater G for me, just lots of barre chords. In this case, I couldn't figure out how John Mayer was using his left hand, but the tab clarified it! As ubetcha said, learning by strict imitation is the way to go. At least for a non-pro like moi! This way I can entertain my family and still keep my sanity. (well, arguably)   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 2:03 pm:    That thumb is indispensable if yer gonna play "Highway to HeII". It's the only way I know to add the low F# to the D chord. The Bear   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 2:12 pm:    Cool. I'm adding "highway to heck" to my list. ;)   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 4:34 am:    My initial lessons were classical so the thumb never really came in to it. Then I saw a picture of Hendrix somewhere and spotted the thumb. Comes in handy six   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 8:51 am:    I cant use my thumb like that because of a cut I recieved when I was young. But when I do play the D/F# I use the index finger on the F# and play the D with the remaining 3 fingers. or I'll barr an open C on the second fret if if the chord does not require the open D and A stings.   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 9:06 am:    Here are some example pics..   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 2:57 pm:    Freak, yup, that's exactly how I've done DMaj with the F# bass in the past. That said, using the cheater thumb would free up your index finger or pinky for some hammering, if needed. Anyway, seems like a good tool to develop! I'll know I've truly arrived when I start using the mike stand as a capo and my teeth for picks. I haven't seen that mentioned in the tabulature! Rock on, folks!   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 9:20 pm:    I used the mic stand the other day as a slide. I hav'nt done that in years. I used to be good at it but now I just use one of those fancy glass tubes that fit over my finger.   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 1:46 am:    Okay, Freak, you win. I can't do that with my hands. And I sure as heII couldn't get to the G from there cleanly. Hence, the thumb !! The Bear   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 7:41 am:    I hear ya Bear. I tried the thumb thing yesterday and can't cut it. Scar tissue just makes it impossible for me. I realize we all have different hand and finger sizes. I have a friend that whos fingers are so fat he ordered his guitar from Taylor with a 12 string sized neck with a 6 string headstock so he could play it. So the bottom line is whatever works for the player himself is the best way.   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 2:08 pm:    Whatever works for you. My pinky is about useless, but from constant practice I can make my thumb wrap around & I first learned about it from watching Ritchie Havens, and Jimi Hendrix play ..back in the day. Hey, I'll steal whatever I can use. All of my guitars that I play for any length of time, will get finish wear on the topside of the neck, where my thumb is walking up the frets. Sometimes you'll find a used axe with that wear pattern, and you know that it belonged to a thumbs kinda guy. My old Slingerland Songster is now so worn, that I can feel the fretboard joint when I'm playing...so I rarely play it anymore. I don't want to re-finish it.   Zenday Username: Zenday Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 3:06 pm:    Yea ritchie havens wraps that thumb like its nobodys biz I learned through a combination of Tablature and Listening to CD;s rewinding over and over and over lol i wish i could read though..   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 9:37 pm:    Yeah, tablature has really helped me figure out some of the things I've had trouble with lately. I wonder if I could pick up something complex like a Leo Kottke song for my 12-string... Doubt it.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 9:52 pm:    I'll never be able to learn complex solos because I don't have the patience to slow them down or read tabs or even practice slowly to bring up my speed, and I don't have the technical dexterity. Yes, I know, that's how to do it. For me, since I understand keys patterns, I figure out where the main key is, then hope all the notes are in there somewhere. I used to have a devil of a time with minor key solos that throw in the major 6th (in theory speak, the dorian scale) since I believed that every minor scale should be aeolean. But now I love that major 6th, along with its minor 7th. So that's where my brain is. My fingers are less sophisticated and I end up making a bunch of noise. Hey! Want to hear me play a solo? I have some songs posted on my web site and this one is all-solo, in homage to Frank Zappa: http://www.chucke.com/mp3/Chuck_Evans_chucke.com_s econd_song_on_side_a.mp3 There's another there, called "Spanish Rice" that is as close as I ever came to guitar heaven. It was me on guitar, a friend on fretless bass and an amazing drummer: http://www.chucke.com/mp3/Chuck_Evans_chucke.com_s panish_rice.mp3 FYI, both of those solos are played on my Ibanez MC400NT. You can pick through a whole bunch of my original songs at my main MP3 page: http://www.chucke.com/mp3.asp The first song on the page (Death Castle) is really crude, and is there just because it is one of the first recordings I ever made (1976), so don't judge the rest by that one. They get better. -Chuck   Zenday Username: Zenday Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 1:13 am:    nice jams chucke!   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 9:14 am:    Chuck, don't underrate yourself. Good sounds. Zenday, take some piano lessons & reading will become easy fast. Reading isn't that big of a deal, playing the guitar anyways. If it sounds right, it is right...whatever the key. I only use my reading ability with ensemble playing, with other stuffy brass & wind players. Even then I cheat. I'm the guy that the music director always used to yell at for free-lancing my part. Ha Ha...   Zenday Username: Zenday Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 12:12 pm:    lol! thanks!   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 1:40 pm:    Yeah, I'm fine with my own songs, it's learning other people's stuff where I have trouble. I can pick up the songs very easily, because I know the underlying theory (keys, lead patterns, chord construction) but I never learn it "exactly". I get it to 80% and then figure I'm done. Great if you're doing your own thing, bad if you're in a cover band where everyone wants it "just so". I really envy guys who can work out note-for-note leads. If I knew more of those, I could apply the runs and techniques to my own leads. -Chuck   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 1:41 am:    Chuck, don't you just hate naturals? I have always had to struggle to play the guitar, but some guys are just naturals. Don't fight it. 80% ain't bad, I'm happy with 60%. The rest is slack anyways, and even the greats take some slack.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 9:05 am:    Nah, I don't hate naturals. My brother was a natural. I was the first kid in our family to take up the electric guitar. My brother decided he liked it, went out and bought a '76 strat (it was 1976 at the time) and in a couple weeks, was playing amazing leads. But I was always the better rhythm player, and I know more about musical theory than he ever learned. You're good at what you're good at, I guess.   Zenday Username: Zenday Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 11:25 am:    I have a friend who is extremly good and he Always hates it when he is called a natural. He get into these long debates about how naturals dont exsist, he says he worked hard to learn and play the way he does.. I didnt join in on the debate that time, but thought to myself all kinds of questions like "is it in ones nature to gravitate towards the guitar rather a piano" "doesnt it take something natural to want to practice alot" and then i think well i never felt natural about playing the guitar i wanted to be jimmy page and play like him wasnt that my ego? and then i get all confused and drop the whole subject. But i thin i do believe in the whole "natural" philosophy. I wonder if i am a natural? what are the symptoms? ingridients?   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 12:07 pm:    Naturals. They exist in every field of endeavor. I grew up with a couple of guitar naturals, and I have run into others all my life. 9 out of 10 never amount to diddley, because it all came too easy. That's IMO, but I've seen it happen over & over again over the years. It takes more than mere physical ability & fantastic technique to make art that moves people. I believe that everyone is a natural at something, for instance I am a natural tuba player. Hey, at least I'm good at something. It could be worse, it could have been the accordian or the bagpipes.

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