EBay -- shills and snipers

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Author Message   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 10:15 am:    I've threatened to start this thread before, but I'm a little ticked off today after being accused of being a shill, so I felt the need to rant. So, I'll do that first, and then start a discussion. Note this is *my* opinion, and certainly not any form of slight on ICW for being part of the system: Rant: ----- eBay has you guys paranoid about shill bidding, when in fact "probing" is simply a side-effect of a flawed system... Be a little more circumspect about your accusations, and if you want to participate in the system as a sniper, don't complain about it. Otherwise, you should probably look at Buy-It-Now auctions and not get engaged in the normal timed auctions. You will get sniped. If, in fact, the early price of an item seems high to you, well then don't bid and don't snipe. Thesis: ------ eBay's timed auctions do not set a true "market" price for collectible items with small audiences. Particularly, I see this with IBZ acoustics, but it also happens with the electrics (which have a bigger audience). There is no way to know what the "real" price of an item ought to be, even during the last seconds. Discussion: ------------ Many of you out there enjoy the last-minute approach which eBay fosters. I don't fault you for that. Good on you -- you're willing to take high risk. Snipers have big wallets and are willing to play the odds that most times folks won't bid against you in the last seconds. That said, someone who actually wants to get an item and is either too naive to know or refuses to do business this way (I'm the latter) can only hope to see enough early bids to really find out what something is actually worth. This could, theoretically, chase away the snipers. Bottom line here, folks, is that on eBay you can either snipe or expect to lose an item you want. As a seller, I would never expect an item to go to someone who actually wants to keep it (which is sometimes a desire for collectibles like ours). The other bottom line, is that I don't think folks who like to snipe should cast aspersions on anyone trying to really probe the price of the item early. Thoughts?   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 10:34 am:    I failed to mention that eBay is absolutely AMAZING in that it provides global visibility to items that otherwise would never be seen. There is no substitute for this, and you have to be amazed by eBay's success at this. eBay is unquestionably the best way for a seller to get exposure on a collectible and for a buyer to know what's out there. To this point, because of the flawed (IMO) bidding system, you may be able to see what's out there, but can you really figure out what something is worth? That's truly my point -- it's not a market. A seller had better go in there knowing exactly what he/she wants for an item; eBay is no place to find out. And a buyer can only expect to win if he snipes (implying all the risk that goes along with that).   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 11:10 am:    I agree that eBay does not set a true market value for collectibles. Too many people get caught up in the fever of bidding or are just too stubborn to let an item go so the winning bids are simply too inflated. Although, I had e-mailed the guys from Vintage Guitar once and they told me that they research prices for the annual price guides from many different sources and eBay was one of those sources. So, eBay does factor into mainstream pricing even if it is just a little bit. When I first joined this forum I had lost out on a couple of nice Destroyers on eBay and one person was claiming there was a shill in those auctions. Nope, just me stubbornly refusing to let go and trying to get it as cheaply as possible. It used to be a lot easier checking for shills before eBay started the anonymous bidder thing. Now, all you have to go by are the few statistics they let you see on each bidder. Given that, I look to see how long any particular bidder has been around, how often they've bid recently, and on how many different sellers. I would think a true shill would probably have very few auctions and be restricted to almost one seller. Also, a shill account would probably have been set up after the seller account. Thoughts? I used to play by the rules on eBay but lost out on so many things to last minute snipers that I finally succumbed to the "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality. If there is something I want really badly I will do two things: 1) post a really high bid initially to get rid of all the flippers and dreamers that think they're going to get something for almost nothing 2) depending on how many people are still bidding by the end of the auction, I may snipe one large bid as close to the end of the auction as I can get or maybe post a semi-large bid with a minute left and snipe a final bid in the last few seconds There also seems to be some difference of opinion (picture that ) as to what constitutes a "sniper". I've seen some threads where price seems to somehow be involved. As far as I know (which may be nothing) a sniper is simply someone who waits until the last possible moment to place their bid. The size of the bid and the current winning bid are irrelevant.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 1:13 pm:    Peter, Your behavior is similar to mine (hence the accusation of shill bidding). However, I don't post a "really high" bid; if I do participate in an auction, as I did recently, I just post what I think it's worth. This, however, is no way to win an eBay "auction." Actually, it's a recipe for losing. Again, the satisfaction here is that you help establish a market price within a system that essentially discourages doing so. Anyway, two things: 1. You're playing by the rules regardless of which approach you take, Peter. You're not breaking any rules by sniping, so don't feel bad about it. eBay sure doesn't. I tried talking with them about this through customer service, but was wasting my breath. You *would* be breaking rules if you are taking some sort of compensation from a seller to counter-bid. That would truly be shill bidding, and I believe it's illegal as well as forbidden. 2. The size of the bid is definitely relevant with respect to sniping. Again, eBay rules encourage this behavior if you're objective is to win, so you shouldn't think that there's some negative connotation to the term "sniper." The point of sniping is to outbid everyone without showing your hand before the close of the auction. You can't do that successfully without bidding a fairly large percentage over the current bid at the end of the auction. Probing the price before the end is counter-productive (from the point of view of winning) because it stirs interest even though it helps to determine a "real" price. Anyway, in my view, the size of the bid (at least proportionately) is part of what determines a sniper. Waiting to the last minute, *without* combining that with a high bid, will not help you win an auction, and doesn't qualify you as a sniper. In my humble opinion, of course...   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 3:24 pm:    There is a tremendous difference between sniping and... placing bids as a probe. Sniping is understandable and I recommend doing it if you just have to have the item. Keep in mind, sniping doesn't guarantee you a win either, it's the amount you bid during the snipe. Placing bids as probes is utterly ridiculous to me and no good can come of it, other than for the seller. This, IMHO is once again inarguable. All it does is drives up the cost of the item you yourself are trying to obtain at the lowest price possible. It seems silly to me to try such a tactic. Unless of course, you probe and then retract your bid. By probe/retract, you find your info but have not ridiculously escalated the price of the item. To just place bids as probes and then leave them there intact seems mental to me. How can anyone argue that? Here we go.......................   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 4:53 pm:    I've seen people 'probe', only to immediately retract their bids... mk   Acetan Username: Acetan Registered: 9-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 5:12 pm:    "Sniping" on eBay is just like the open bidding system used through out the world in awarding public contracts. The seller is, like the Government, inviting interested bidders to submit their offers. The seller then reveals all offers after the deadline and the bid that gives the highest value to the seller wins. It absolutely decides the true value of the contract as the winning bid represents the highest value available to the seller from all informed and rational bidders. For those who are driven by an emotion to win, or those who have no idea what an object's value is, my advice is,"Learn to control your emotion and do your homework." ...or you can just place a huge bid and win the auction. I call those suckers, not winners though.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 5:36 pm:    I don't know what eBay's policies are on bid retraction. That should somehow be punished. I don't know; I've never considered retracting a bid. Maybe we should clarify what we mean by probing... I'm not sure there's a real definition for this. The eBay proxy bidding system is a substitute for a real auction room. I think "probing" would be analogous to a bidding war. I think placing multiple bids is a little silly, but again the non-sniper is trying to place a bid to figure out where the other bidder maxes out. Why is that ridiculous, Bob?   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 5:58 pm:    I've only retracted a bid once in my entire life and that was because the seller changed the description after I had bid on the item. Some "probing" may just be desperation. I know when my "final" bid on the second Destroyer was outbid by a lot, I kept entering "desperation bids" hoping that his upper limit was only a little more than my "final" bid. $500 after my "final" bid I finally let it go. And I'm still kicking myself for it, too.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 6:04 pm:    Ace, That's an interesting point of view, but the gov't system depends on multiple contractors naming rational prices for their services. Obviously, if they bid too low, they risk putting themselves out of business. I don't think this system scales well here for the kinds of items we care about on eBay, Ace. But, it's an interesting argument to consider. The primary reason it doesn't work, I think, is because there are just a limited number of bidders in the process. I think that a "huge" bid to win an auction is exactly what a true sniper will do. More often than not (again, due to the system), a sniper will go uncontested and will get the item "cheap." I put these terms in quotes because, again, I don't think we have any true idea what the value of the item is. Again, I do think what you're saying has merit though and is worth considering!   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 6:18 pm:    Peter, I didn't really want this thread to get too specific, but I think the fact that you had time in the Destroyer auction to even place multiple bids is actually the system *working*. The fact that you were outbid, well, that's the nature of an auction -- and I would claim that that *is* arriving at a market price. eBay sniping will normally not give you that opportunity. That's exactly why it works for the sniper. Snipers can put a lot of money on the line because -- most of the time -- they will not be challenged. It's a gamble. The gov't contract system, Ace, wouldn't work well if it had a proxy system for lowering bids. Think about that.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 7:02 pm:    Here's the flip of sniping and shilling: when I find a brand new item I like, I'll often put a bid on it, at a price I think is a bargain (just in case I win it) so the item will show up in my "Bidding" list rather than my "Watching" list, which can get really long. That way, I can keep an eye on the auction as it progresses, and bid higher later if I'm outbid and I decide it's worth it. I don't bid $1, though, I'll put in a reasonable bid amount. For example, when 2387 Korina V's come out, I'll put in a $500 bid right away, even though I know it probably doesn't meet reserve, to get it on my bidding list. -Chuck   Acetan Username: Acetan Registered: 9-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 7:21 pm:    I must have bought at least 20 vintage Ibanezs off of eBay in the last five years and EVERY time I sniped. I'd place a bid at the maximum amount I'll pay for the guitar and entered the bid mere seconds before the auction ended. I ended up winning about 60% of the time. If I got out-bid, I'm ok with it as the winner wanted it more than I do. If I win at an amount much lower than my max, I figure I got a bargain. I don't bid early and chase but try to stop others from chasing my bid also.   Michaelkaufman Username: Michaelkaufman Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 8:36 pm:    Ace: same here. The only time I bid early is if there's a BIN and I'm not willing to pay that price and I don't want someone else to purchase it using the BIN. Many times, the opening bid meets the reserve and the BIN goes away. If that happens, then I've protected myself, at least in the short term. Then I'll snipe on top of my opening bid. mk   Acetan Username: Acetan Registered: 9-2003 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 1:35 am:    Exactly.   Snowjays Username: Snowjays Registered: 9-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 3:29 am:    Bidding on Ebay is a bit like driving on the road. You have to consider everyone around you to be idiots. You can do as much research as you want to try and predict how someone else is going to behave, and that works well when the supply of something is kept up, then buyers will always say "Ill get the next one...". But put into context the fact that we are seeing fewer of the older models avalible to buy, as well as an increase in market interest(buyers), then your always going have someone standing in line who's wallet in fatter than yours.   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 7:53 am:    Chaz, in response to your question "why... etc." It's ridiculous because all you are doing is driving up the cost of the guitar completely unnecessarily by doing that. No bid counts except the winning bid. If enough "emotional" bidders are involved in an auction and you have placed bids to "probe" these emotional bidders are just gonna bid over you because they think it means something to be the "high bidder." It means NOTHING!!! The winning bidder means something, not the high bidder while the auction is on. So, by placing early bids as probes, you are inviting a bidding war and like I said, driving up the cost of a guitar that you really want to obtain at the lowest price possible. Some one above mentioned the correct thing to do.... wait til the end and bid the highest amount you are willing to pay for the guitar. Yes, "wait til the end" can include sniping. If a guitar is listed at $500 and no one, absolutely no one bids until there's 20 seconds left (and at that point you place your bid at what you are willing to pay) the guitar is still at $500 with 20 seconds left. If you've "probed" the auction with bids and maybe even got emotional bidders fighting you now.... is the guitar still at $500? NOPE! It could have even gotten bid way beyond the guitars actual worth by then and that surpasses what your high bid decision was and now you've lost interest and the guitar. At lkeast retracting a ":probe bis" gets you the info you want without jacking up the cost of the guitar. I personally have never "probed" and then retracted a bid. But folks do it, I've seen it. It's smart but annoying as heck. Who says there's anything wrong with sniping? I've done it once or twice and won each time, all it is is placing a bid. But... to bid early, for any reason is just silly to me.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 9:52 am:    I see your point, Bob, but you're assuming everyone is willing to behave like a sniper and wait for the last minute. I think that's surely not the case. I don't know, maybe I'm reading your post wrong. Auctions *can* be won in advance of the last seconds of an auction. I've seen it. In this case, early bids aren't jacking up the price; they're setting the price. This speaks to my point earlier.   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 10:50 am:    Chaz, I actually haven't assumed everyone will behave as a sniper. I indicated otherwise. Such as... by placing early bnids (for whatever reason) you are inviting trouble by fighting it out with emotional bidders and even if there were no emotional bidders, you've still jacked up the cost of the guitar just by the simple fact that you bid on it. Ebay has a "watch this item" icon on every auction. JUST USE THAT TO KEEP TRACK OF YOUR AUCTIONS. It keeps it in your face just as it would if you would have bid instead of "watching" the item. I'm just trying to say that you open the door to negative possibilities in so many ways by bidding early. Once again, I see this as inarguable. But... I always get an argument so my inclination is to be open minded and listen to those arguments and actually mull them over for their content. I've mulled and mulled and mulled each one of these arguments against my inarguability and I still haven't heard one that changes my mind. I should say "changes reality" but that would get me in trouble. I've done so much mulling I am Martin Mull when it comes to this topic now. Example: You want a guitar on ebay. Start price: $500. You (or anybody here) bids for whatever assorted reasons that have been presented above and to me in the past. Now that you've bid.... $500... a bunch of clowns who just like to see their names as the "high bidder" start bidding. Now the guitar is $750. Then an emotional bid war starts between interested parties. Now the guitar is $1200 and there's days to go in the auction. It's your early bid that brought all this on, accomplished nothing, you still don't have the guitar, the emotional bidders still don't have the guitar, interested parties who just placed a bid to keep it in front of their faces through messages from ebay still don't have the guitar and now the guitar has nearly tripled in price against the original $500 the guy was asking for the axe. keep in mind, the auction still ain't over. Now what? The seller is very happy and the only bid that REALLY means anything at all is the FINAL bid. Although folks keep indicating their "reasons" for bidding early (and believe me I understand what they are saying) it just doesn't hold water. Yes, even if you wait til the last second, even if you snipe, it don't mean you will get the guitar. That's why... someone above has it right... just figure what the most is you are willing to pay and then wait til the last second or snipe it. In this example, the guitar would still be at $500 when you place your bid at the last second. Isn't that better than if the guitar has almost tripled in cost by that time (end of auction.)? Like I said, you invite the POSSIBILTY of so many negative things by doing what you are doing. Inarguable to me. I can't even imagine in my wildest dreams how this can be argued but... let's hear it and I am up for some more mulling.   Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 11:07 am:    YAWN   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 11:31 am:    IMO bidding strategies are like systems for playing roulette, about worthless. The only one that makes any sense is to hold your water to the end, and then make your first & final bid as late as you dare. All you do by bidding on anything sooner, is motivate other potential buyers to counter-bid. The whole idea of auctions is to inflame the emotions of buyers & jack up the price, so just don't play that game. I've sold exclusively on ebay for 7 years, so I have a mirror-image attitude about buying & selling. I would never personally buy a guitar W/O being able to inspect it, but obviously plenty of folks do. Sniping on desirable & expensive items is the rule, not the exception, and experienced sellers count on it. Shilling is a whole different subject. There are times when I have listed valuable items with no reserve, and I can tell from the # of viewers that lots of people are interested, but only one or none have bid on it. Often it will be one significant bid, but not high enough to suit me as a final sale price. This is where shill bidding comes in. The drawback is that I might end up eating the fees if "I" win. The advantage is that I won't end up selling something for less than I know it's worth. This is what I consider ethical shilling. There's another type of shilling, which has become insidious however. This is done by buyers themselves, who have multiple "legitimate" accounts under different identities. They will do a few transactions to get a rating, and then use these ID's to place multiple bids on an item they want. Sometimes this will scare off the competition & they get the item for a lesser price. More often these are serious computer dweebs, with a more sinister plan. Using the ebay message system, they will use one of their "legitimate" alternate ID's to message the buyer with a "Phishing" come-on. The one who got me, was with a message that my item was being listed by somebody else, with a URL to it. Because the message came thru ebay, & from a "legitimate" user...I looked at the item, and when I did the crook got into my system & could then basically control the auction to his own advantage. He emailed all competing bidders with messages designed to make them think that I was a scammer, and he won the auction for more than $1000 less than the value, because he scared off all the other bidders. Ebay would do nothing, even when I laid it all out for them...they can't admit that users can do this with their supposedly secure messaging system. The guy who got me knew that I had figured his scam out, and refused to send me the $500 deposit that I had stipulated. Because of this, I got out of selling the item, but I still had to pay the ebay fees & then re-list it. That guy is still out there, doing his thing & ebay will do nothing about it. Watch out for this scam, and do not trust the ebay message system. The shill accounts will invariably have only a few transactions, so stipulate a minimum # to do business, & never go to any URL under any circumstances that comes from an ebayer through the ebay message system. Ebay's biggest nightmare is to have sellers lose faith in their system...because they get all their money from the sellers, not the buyers. For this reason, they cannot admit that there is any way that their message system can be used like this. Beware...the scammers are out there & they can use ebay's system to nick you & ebay will do •••• squat about it.   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 12:46 pm:    EBay's attitude towards problems that occur on ebay (buying/selling problems) is HIDEOUS! They really couldn't give a crap. Why should they? They will tell you "all ebay does is provide a forum, we are not responsible for what happens on the forum we provide." There ain't enough space on this site to list all the horrors of Ebay's "service" to it's users. I can't blame them though. Ebay is so huge that it's beyond their abilities (financially) to provide good customer service. It would put them out of business if they had to rectify every situation that occurs. Nothing's perfect, including Ebay, They deserve credit for many many things but they deserve a sound lashing for their customer support/service. To say that it is non-existant would not be very far from the truth. Ubetcha, I'm surprised you'd admit to shilling. I commend you for your hnesty but it's still pretty distasteful to me. However, I guess it's part of the available weapons available to do business on ebay and business is business (I guess.) If there's a loophole to be exploited anywhere in business, it will be exploited. You know what... as far as shill bidding, I wouldn't really care. as long as no one on this site was a victim of it's fruition.   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 12:54 pm:    P.S. - sorry 'bout stating my opinion again but I think Chaz said he never saw that old thread so... it was really specifically for him. I can understand the rest of you guys are sick of hearing my opinion on the subject. I sincerely apologize to those guys. I'm sick of stating it. But... the arguments are interesting nevertheless.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 1:04 pm:    I'm a very UNEXPERIENCED bidder. I must say that I learn from your stories. I never heard of probing. But I know some probing is by accident. I know at least one member who wouldn't have won his guitar if he hadn't accidently typed a zero too much (identity under embargo of the member in question). I guess it was destiny... Ginger   Jerryneves Username: Jerryneves Registered: 3-2001 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 1:54 pm:    I dont get anyone who doesn't snipe!! I always bid with seconds remaining with the max I am willing to pay period! That way if I win I got it for the max I am willing to pay, anything less is a bargain to me....and in the process I dont needlessly jack-up the price during the rest of the auction by "bidding it up" in price. It drives me nuts to see an item climb in price during the last hour of the auction (unless I am the seller!). I think those who do that are (as we say int the fire service) ROOKIES!   Johns Username: Johns Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 2:10 pm:    Personally, I'm in the same camp as Acetan and MK. Ubetcha: Interesting to read about your excursion into the darker side of eBay scammers, very informative. I had my eBay account hacked and gobs of phony auctions were put up under my ID. eBay took care of it pronto with no harm. This concerns me though: "This is where shill bidding comes in. The drawback is that I might end up eating the fees if "I" win. The advantage is that I won't end up selling something for less than I know it's worth. This is what I consider ethical shilling." Are you saying that you are bidding on your own item to preserve a certain value? Isn't that what a reserve or starting bid is for?   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 3:50 pm:    Jerry, I meant for this thread to explain the non-sniper point of view, and apparently I didn't express it well. If you can't understand why someone doesn't snipe, then I can only ask whether you've ever taken a vacation or had a computer with a flaky network connection? Seriously, just because snipers enjoy the game, do you really expect the majority of buyers out there to fit this mold? The same guy who wanders occasionally into the town music store to look at the inventory... do you think this is the same guy who wants to interrupt his dinner to whack away on the computer?   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 6:45 pm:    Early vs late bidding can be argued 'til the cows come home. The only bid that counts is the highest one, regardless of when it is placed. If I am willing to pay $500 for an item, it matters not if I place my $500 bid one second after the item is listed or one second before it ends. My maximum bid is still $500. If another bidder places a higher maximum bid, before or after mine, I do not win the auction. Sniping is fun, but placing my maximum bid early is easier especially if the auction ends at an inconvenient time. I have had equal success with both methods. eBay is not an "auction" in the true sense. It's really a proxy bidding system with the option to change your proxy bid right up to the auction end. You can't "drive the price up" by bidding early. The final price will be determined by the highest bid. The Bear   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 7:30 pm:    Johns, I don't bid on my own items. I have many friends who trade on ebay. We all have an understanding....ebay always gets theirs, we pay their bills, and any way that we can doink them out of $.02...we will. They do it to us every time. In this regard, their fees increase with reserve auctions, and with higher starting prices. Reserves & high starting prices also discourage interest & bidding. I believe in Caveat Emptor. There's no way that I can make anyone pay more for something than it's worth, but I can make sure it won't sell for less, by having a friend bid a "reserve price". That way I save a lot of ebay fees, and I won't get screwed. The disadvantage is that if I'm wrong in my estimation of what it's minimally worth, I'll have to pay even more to ebay for their cut. So far, that has never happened. 1500+ transactions & 100% positive feedback. I'm not trying to screw buyers, I'm trying to screw ebay.   Snowjays Username: Snowjays Registered: 9-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 8:31 pm:    Bid early and ther's always some thrill seeker trying to push the price up without any intention of buying. Whether that is a shill or not is another matter. Bid late and you avoid those annoying JERKS. When is come to the shill (ethical or not), how do you know these days because it is all secret squirrel stuff. I reciently found someone putting shill bids against me only because the moron replied to my question using a different account and email address. Then he got upset when I withdrew my bid. Go figure.   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 3:04 am:    "Bid early and ther's always some thrill seeker trying to push the price up without any intention of buying. Whether that is a shill or not is another matter. Bid late and you avoid those annoying JERKS." So anyone who out bids you is automatically a "Jerk"? If I place my bid early and it's higher than the one you place near the end, am I still a "Jerk"? The Bear   Snowjays Username: Snowjays Registered: 9-2004 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 4:17 am:    You outbid me then you must have the intention to buy. It's those who get a thrill out of adding little bids at a time to test your maximum that are the JERKS. IF YOU HAVE THE INTENTION TO BUY, then I'm sure that if your maximum is higher than others you'll get the goods. But at what risk do you expose yourself financially by bidding early?   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 5:18 am:    Briefly.... I've got to be honest and say that 99% of the time I try and snipe something. I don't have any fancy software to help me. I've got it down to about 4 seconds before the auction closes (+/- a second or so). If I don't win then I assume that I was sniped by software or by a big player. The whole thing gives me a tremendous buzz. Like 30 seconds before the end I can feel my heart pumping in my chest and my mouth go dry. It's very animal..as if I was getting ready for a punch-up (more like run away). So I guess I enjoy my ebaying in that way. Of course if it gets to pricey or it's just not worth paying that much before the auction closes, I don't bother My ebay account is 100% buyer. I've never sold a thing so 'The Shill' is annoying but not much I can do about it. I am experienced and I agree that before this 'Bidder 1/2/3/4' privacy thing came in I could usually spot the shill and then decide to back off or play. Now if I see a big fat zero... I usually back off and wait for the next bus In the words of Jean-Luc Picard "In the end, lifes all about choices." six   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 8:20 am:    Here's a ridiculous solution to all this. Yes... ridiculous. If Ebay only allowed "Buy it now" auctions, none of this would occur. Seller lists his item for what he wants for it. The one bidder (there can be only one) pays what the seller is asking.... everybody's happy. This eliminates all the nonsense. Yes.... it obviously flies in the face of what Ebay's all about and it doesn't make sense on more than one level. However... it would end all the nonsense and buyer and seller would always be happy because seller got the $$$ he knew he would be happy with and.... buyer paid something he was obviously comfortable with, otherwise he wouldn't have bid. No shills, no probes, no retractions, no snipers just 2 parties in agreement. And.... Ebay gets their fees as well. So 3 happy campers there. Ebay would probably actually save themselves a lot of time and money in the customer service department by doing this. It would eliminate tons and tons of complaints and problems. It would actually eliminate MOST of the problems on Ebay, just leaving the problem of outright thieves who list an item they don't really have. I think this scenario would be worth it for all involved. Only allow "Buy it now" auctions. No other options available. I think ebay should have a "barter" area as well, where folks can just trade stuff and Ebay has a flat fee for the trade, no matter what the value of items involved are. $10 for a barter deal. If they do 100,000 barter deals, that's a chunk of change.   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 8:58 am:    Bob - To take your BIN example to its extreme end, only the interested person who saw the auction first would be able to buy the item. No one else would even know it had existed unless they were searching the completed auction listings. That would lead to buyers searching more and more frquently to try and be the first one to find an item. That will eventually lead to software agents being developed to automatically search eBay more frequently and more quickly than a human can. I doubt eBay's servers would be able to handle the amount of traffic generated by tens (hundreds) of thousands of automated search tools pinging their web site every second or so. It would essentially be the same as a DDOS attack and eBay would have to shut down. My 2 cents. - Pete   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 9:38 am:    Well Pete, if what you say is true, and it very well may be.... that's why I said "ridculous" above. However... I'm not so sure it would go to the extreme that you point out. In the scenario I presented, I still maintain that everybody's happy. The seller got what he wanted, why should he care who he got it from or how many people didn't have the opportunty to purchase the item? I did indicate there could only be one bidder (whoever hits the "buy it now".) Keep in mind, 15,000 people could view the auction and not pull the trigger. It could be the 15,001st person who views the auction and decides it's an acceptable price and buys it. Loads of folks could see the auction and pass on it too. In a way, this buy it now only scenario would work to ebay's advantage in this manner as well... it would keep folks glued to ebay more often because of the fact that they may miss something so they better be on ebay pretty often if they want something. That don't hurt ebay either. Plus... let's say someone's looking for an ar500. It's not like only one becomes available per year. You miss one, you hang around ebay and wait for another. Ummmmmmmmmmm.... this is semi-ridiculous at the very least. I think I have the right idea although. it's stupid (somehow.) That's pretty decent incite there though Peter. It certainly could go the way you indicated.   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 10:54 am:    The BIN only idea goes completely against the whole rationale & attraction of Ebay. It might be a buyer/collectors dream, but it would cut out 98% of the people who use the system. The lure of ebay is about people on a treasure hunt. Buyers trying to find that great deal, and sellers trying to get a good price for something they can't reasonably market to such a huge audience in any other way. Regardless what some have said, I believe that the auction aspect is what is compelling about ebay. High bidder wins. It's like a lottery & hope springs eternal. Take away that angle & it's just a glorified want-ads. BIN is a cop-out for sellers who either aren't knowledgeable, experienced, or confident enough to know the value of what they're selling. And guess what? Ebay doesn't really care if you don't sell your item, they make their money from the seller anyways & even moreso if it was a BIN auction that doesn't sell. They know that usually the unsold item will be re-listed & they'll make even more money next time around, too. People who are only buyers on Ebay need to understand that all of Ebay's enormous profits come from the sellers. They don't get a dime from buyers. The dream of making $1000 for that guitar or whatever, that Uncle Earl gave you 25 years ago...is what makes it work. BIN is just a safety valve for sellers, like a reserve price...and of course ebay charges extra for it.   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 11:31 am:    yes, yes, yes, agreed. I stated "it flies in the face of what ebay is all about"... but in it's own sick little way, it would eleviate some of the problems involved with the original topic here. It's a viable solution and... it's stupid at the same time.   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 1:27 pm:    Bob - I don't think your idea is stupid at all. I just don't understand the whole BIN reasoning. I'm a pure buyer on eBay. I've never sold anything. From my buyer-oriented view, it seems to me (the world according to Pete) that basic greed would preclude any seller from ever using BIN. If a seller posts a reasonable BIN price it seems to me they're just short-changing themselves. Heck, a lot of eBay bidding is auction frenzy that would - most likely - drive the winning bid well above the posted BIN price assuming the seller set a reserve price. I don't understand why sellers even use BIN. Unless they have stock they're just looking to move quickly and don't really care about per unit profit? - Pete   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 1:52 pm:    "Unless they have stock they're just looking to move quickly and don't really care about per unit profit?" That, and they don't have a collector's sophisticated knowledge of the up-date real world value of what they are selling. They get their valuation from a price guide, another auction, or what some other person tells them. What I don't understand is why anyone would have a reserve price and a BIN price?   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 2:10 pm:    Well a reserve and a buy it now ain't so hard to understand. The reserve is obvious, it secures the item in the sellers possession until the reserve is met. And the buy it now just means they'd be happy to have whatever the BIN is, immediately. Yes?   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 2:59 pm:    Bob, yes your logic is inescapable. But explain me all the high dollar auctions you will find, where the difference between the reserve price & the BIN price is an insignificant amount? I don't understand?   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 3:13 pm:    Ubetcha... my thinking on that is... a seller lists that way because... he basically (really) knows what the item is worth and does not expect some lunatic to bid $5000 for a $300 item. So he feels comfortable within those two dollar amounts. He has a reserve of $300 to protect himself. He has a buy it now of $450 because he'd be happy with that. I think a seller with an auction as you describe is comfortable with the knowledge he has about the value of the piece he is selling. Folks list with BIN sometimes too just for the potential of getting their payment quicker instead of waiting for the auction to run it's course.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 5:43 pm:    It's good that you guys are talking straight about this stuff and in cool tones (like good guitar playing ). I think it's a bit bonding, and somewhat instructional, to know how we all feel about this. I do want to clarify that my reason for posting this thread was so that people would understand the non-sniper mentality (i.e., me). I don't want to be accused of shill bidding just because I'm out there placing an early bid on an item and not interested in the last-minute eBay buzz that six was talking about. And, y'know what... If my oroxy bid (which, by the way, I *would* pay for an item) causes a sniper to have to pay more at the end to take it from me, well then I've increased "market value" for another IBZ collectible. I don't see how that hurts anyone here. That said, I stand by my original thesis that the price an item sells for on eBay is not a fair market.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 5:58 pm:    If I had listed my 1975 Kiss concert ticket stub with a BIN, I might have optimistically put it up for $50. But I let it ride as an auction and some guy actually paid $125 for it. I only use BIN if I need cash and want to sell something right away, or if I'm hoping the same guy who bought the $1978 Challenger will buy my item too. My reserves are always about 505 lower than the BIN anyway.   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 7:25 pm:    I've only used BIN one time, and I wish I hadn't. Driving the dozer at the Santa Cruz County landfill one day, my buddy found a guitar sticking up & he jumped down & grabbed it & took it home. I saw it laying around a few days later, and he told me the story & then he gave it to me. Turned out to be a 1920's Oscar Schmidt Stella parlor sized guitar, with pearloid fingerboard & headstock. With only minor elbow grease it cleaned up beautifully & was very solid, completely original, and a great playing & sounding little axe! Best slide guitar I've ever had. One thing led to another, after a few years I decided to sell it, and I listed it with no reserve, $50 starting price, and a BIN of $1250. In 1-1/2 days it went steadily up to $400 and then a guy used the BIN option. I know it would have gone higher, but I really can't ••••• about it and I just wonder where it would have ended up? As a result, I will never use BIN again because it takes all the thrill out of watching my stuff sell. I enjoy the crap-shoot aspect, and the game is trying to guess what things will go for. Just a head-game I play with myself, but it also motivates me to do research..which is important.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 8:56 pm:    My post should read, at the end, "...about 50% lower...".   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 6:08 pm:    Hey Johns, I'm with you in thinking Ubetcha's argument in favor of Shill Bidding is CONCERNING to say the least! Ubetcha, if you don't want your item to sell for less than its worth then use a Reserve or Starting Bid. Whinging about Ebay's fees is a crock. Their fees are more than fair given the world wide market you get access to as a seller. If you want some Seller's protection then pay for it! Honestly, do really think putting fake bids in is fair? The bottom line is that if your item is good, and well listed then it will sell at a fair price. That's me - I'm outta here! Cheers, Mark   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 12:05 pm:    What's perfectly understandable, is that each owner wants to get a certain minimum amount of money for his guitar. The proper way to ensure that you get that amount (or more), is setting a reserve, which costs a bit extra, but like Munch said, that's fair. Another option is setting a BIN amount equal to the starting bid, but then you will never get more than that amount, so you should set that pretty high. This only works with a very good presentation, like Redscuderi made for his natural Challenger. Ginger   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 12:05 pm:    What's perfectly understandable, is that each owner wants to get a certain minimum amount of money for his guitar. The proper way to ensure that you get that amount (or more), is setting a reserve, which costs a bit extra, but like Munch said, that's fair. Another option is setting a BIN amount equal to the starting bid, but then you will never get more than that amount, so you should set that pretty high. This only works with a very good presentation, like Redscuderi made for his natural Challenger. Ginger   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 12:08 pm:    •••• touch pad... Johns, would you please be so kind to remove one of these posts? Thanks. Ginger   Peterdryan Username: Peterdryan Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 12:30 pm:    Question for the eBay sellers out there: How does eBay charge you for an auction? Is it a flat rate per item? A percentage of the winning bid? Does a long auction cost more than a short auction? Are there fees associated with reserve prices and/or BIN? Being a pure buyer, I'm ignorant of the entire sellers' side of eBay. Thanks.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 3:22 pm:    eBay charges a % of the selling price. It's on a sliding scale, so the more the item sells for, the less the incremental % is. I believe the listing fee is higher if the auction is longer, but it's insignificant compared to the value of listing items longer. (If you have the patience, it is almost always worth your while to list for a longer period of time.) Yes, there are fees for reserve and BIN. Basically (though I haven't done the math) if you were to list an item for $1 and have a reserve of $500, you'd pay about the same as just listing it for $500 in the first place. The BIN fee is not that high. I'd like to hear other opinions on whether people prefer low initial bids with reserves, or just prefer to list with a higher starting bid. Also, if you use PayPal (which I do) be prepared to pay THEM a percentage of any funds received. eBay'ers call this "double taxation" since eBay owns PayPal. But I put up with it because I like the security of using PayPal rather than trying to deal with phony cashiers checks.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Monday, August 13, 2007 - 7:58 am:    I wanted to comment on the BIN discussion. As we said, eBay gets a seller enormous buying visibility. Assuming a seller puts together a reasonable description, more people will see an item on eBay than probably any listing anywhere else. eBay's huge audience its siren song for sellers. The reason that someone would sell an item on eBay with basically a fixed price (reserve == BIN, or some such...) is simple; they want to take advantage of this audience to do retail. eBay makes 'em pay for this privilege. Nothing wrong with it. It's just not an auction, and it costs the seller more. As a buyer, I think a BIN is great. A BIN will attract me, where an open-ended auction won't. It's essentially retail, yes, but I can decide whether it's the right price to pay for an item.   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 10:55 pm:    About what I expected from a bunch of buyers. You're welcome for the seller's insight.   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:00 pm:    What makes you think that we are only buyers? I just listed a Gretsch guitar with a starting bid of $99 and a BIN of $749. I got $517 which was $17 more than I was hoping for. The low starting price brought in heaps of watchers and plenty of bids. Mark   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 12:42 am:    Mark, interesting observation. So, I'm watching a Taylor auction (no reserve, no minimum) which seems to be drawing significant early bidding among multiple bidders. A true "market price" seems to be coming here. So, why the early bidding activity? Several of these bidders have lots of feedback, indicating they're not novices and "should" be sniping rather than bidding early. What gives? I suspect if the seller had established a minimum $1500 bid, there'd be zero bids on the board. What do you think? Ebay Item #230161335853   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 1:09 pm:    "What makes you think that we are only buyers? I just listed a Gretsch guitar with a starting bid of $99 and a BIN of $749. I got $517 which was $17 more than I was hoping for. The low starting price brought in heaps of watchers and plenty of bids." If you were smart, you'd start the bid at $.99 and save money, and no BIN which also saves you money...PLUS....you eliminate the idiot factor. Yes it's true, sometimes idiots pay too much...way too much. Caveat Emptor.   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 3:12 pm:    Chaz, responding to your question... "what do you think?"... has and will get some folks here bent out of shape. Watch. here's my response to you question... they are "silly" (there's a safe word) for doing what they are doing. But you can substitute several other words that start with "s" if you like. That's up to you. I say silly.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 6:55 pm:    Thanks, Bob. Hey, I take your point. The bottom line here is that not everybody is a sniper, whether it's naivete or just inability / unwillingness to throw money at an item at the last minute. Some auctions can arrive at a final price before the end. We're not there yet with this auction, but I could make an argument that we're getting to a "true" market price for this item since all the bidders have ample opportunity to bid. Here we have the last two bidders (bidder 8 and 9) feeling each other out. I just thought it was interesting. Hopefully it won't get people worked up.   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 7:29 am:    We're amongst friends here so... we get over it.   Redscuderia Username: Redscuderia Registered: 4-2006 Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 12:55 pm:    I believe all is fair in love and war. If ebay allows last minute "sniper" bids, then thats part of the game. I also agree that a traditional auction last bid does not signify the true price. You have a limited 5,7, or 10 day audience. Someone might log into ebay a week later that would have paid another $500 for something. I personally will not bid on RESERVE auctions. I hate them. If I ever want to unload a lower end priced guitar, I will start at .01 and let it go where it goes. Ive been surprised that way many times. Guitars I would have put up for $350. BIN end up at $400 and sometimes $500. with a no reserve, one penny start. When I get to higher priced pieces, I will do a BIN or a best offer. There are no shills that way. Ive had success thru the years doing that. Sometimes things happen--you cant make everyone happy. Thats just the facts of life. I sold a 1986 Jackson Pink Soloist back in February to a man in the US. No sooner then 15 mins after the package was signed for, he filed a dispute and immediate claim with PAYPAL saying the guitar did not work (it did). Took 2 months for PayPal to rule in his favor. The jerk sends it back to me UNPACKAGED in a guitar box. He broke a latch on the case, and the guitar had chunks of wood taken out of it. I complained to PayPal and it, of course, fell on deaf ears. i was beat. I had to refund him 100% and was left with a damaged guitar and vintage case. What did I do? I relisted the guitar for MORE MONEY BIN--- It sold in 2 days for more money and the buyer left perfect feedback. He has emailed me a few times over the last few months telling me how he loves it and the stage presence and crowd response is great. So you see--you never know. I have an issue going on right now with a fellow member of ICW. He got a project 2619 and has been fair working with me up until this morning. All of a sudden, out of no where, hes threatening me and trying to extort me. I will not tolerate it. I told him to send me the guitar back and I will give him every cent he paid me. When I get it back, I will sell it for more money. The man, in my opinion, got a great deal. It doesnt matter what I think. I want him to be satisfied. If hes not, so be it. Ill sell it to someone else. The fun of Ebay. Embrace it before the government finally intervenes and ruins it for all of us.   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 1:19 pm:    Redscuderia, right on! I always know when I'm dealing with a cheeseball, and I just try to ride it out. I have lost a lot of money, cooperating with utter iceholes..to keep my 100% positive rating. That's where it's at, bottomline. Integrity cannot be bought.   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 11:44 pm:    For those who think PayPal offers "security", you might wanna check this out: http://www.paypalwarning.com/ After having my account frozen on the whim of an A-hole buyer, I have closed my PayPal account. Any future eBay transactions will be by Postal Money order. The Bear   Mrblanche Username: Mrblanche Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 9:57 am:    And I, personally, don't bid on any "Money order only" auctions. But I can understand where you're coming from. If narrowing down your audience is OK with you, then that's what you should do.   Redscuderia Username: Redscuderia Registered: 4-2006 Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 3:09 pm:    I tell people that PayPal is like fire. As a seller, you need it. Respect it, understand it and make it work for you. BUT IT CAN BURN YOU if you do not watch it and control it. As an international collector and seller of guitars, I have had thousands frozen by PayPal. Because most of the guitars I do sell are higher end and PayPal/Ebay makes a substantial amount of money off of me, when I call, I do get respect and I get answers. A few months back PayPal took it upon themselves to freeze my entire account and cancel any bank transfers. I dont want to talk figures, but it was high 4 figures they froze. It took about 12 days to get it unfrozen. I understand why they did it as they explained it to me. As a US citizen, Ill be off the wall and tell you Im glad they did it. Their reasons were for security that effects us all on this planet. I have a whole new view of Paypal after that. I will say, it is a more positive view. I told them once that my reputation is fine and I don't need you. Well guess what, I did some statistics on my auctions and PayPal accepted auctions sell faster and for more money. It is a necessary evil of Ebay. Just my 2 cents....   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 9:41 pm:    Just an interesting note. The no-reserve, no-minimum Taylor auction I mentioned earlier finally ended (see link below), and it appears there was no sniping. I'm not exactly sure. Anyway, it was interesting to watch. Ebay Item #230161335853   Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 10:17 pm:    Chazmo.....The winner (an EBay member for over 4 years that has never bought or sold anything) suddenly gets the urge to bid top dollar on a $2,200 guitar.....THATS WHATS INTERESTING !!!!!!!   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 6:51 am:    Yeah, sounds like the seller outbid himself. Made me smile. six   Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 8:28 am:    Somehow I think we will see this one again   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 9:47 am:    I did notice 0 feedback on the eventual buyer, guys. That is interesting. And, indeed, he was competing with some bigger fish. He countered earlier bids on this guitar before the end, and wasn't challenged by any of the bigger fish at the end. And, no snipers seemed to jump in. Six, what do you mean? Are you saying the seller was shilling? Dave, I don't know... if my theory about early bidders is correct (like this guy), this winner really wants the guitar. My theory about snipers (not ICW members, but many that are out there) is that they're in business to re-sell the items they buy.   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 10:21 am:    Chaz, this smells like shill. Big time.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 10:30 am:    That's what I thought you guys were saying. Indeed! That could surely be the case. OK, I'll let you know if I see this item again. I guess I shouldn't've used this as an example!?   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 11:12 am:    Yeah I reckon a shill. A dumb shill at that. Re sniping. Like I said, I like to snipe but I've never had a motive to resell. I just like the thrill. I set a price in my head, I bid and if I don't win ...its tough. It's just a bit of fun. six   Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 12:46 pm:    All I said was that it was "Interesting" that a long term EBay member that has NEVER MADE A PURCHASE is suddenly struck with an overwhelming desire to purchase an expensive guitar as his first foray into the dark world of EBAy....Interesting and unusual...   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 1:05 pm:    So, guys... I won't belabor this any longer, but I'm still interested in your thoughts, especially since I could see myself getting into a situation like this... If this guy *wasn't* a shill, and he just wanted this guitar for his collection, do you still think he's dumb? If so, is that because he bid up the price early on as counter-bids came along (rather than just posting a big, maximum proxy earlier, or sniping)? Consider: if he hadn't done that, he might have had to try to snipe at the last minute and then contended with other sniper(s). Final comment, I'm not sure if I'm reading the bid history correctly, but did he snipe his own auction with a last-minute bid? To me, that would seem to counter-indicate that he was shilling...   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 2:05 pm:    You can always shoot the winner an e-mail in a week or so and ask him how he likes the guitar. if he comes up with a strange response, that may indicate it was a shill after all. However, if it was a last second snipe bid, that would not make sense at all in the shill scenario. I'd bet (from Dave's description of the buyers ebay history) that it was a shiller. If you are a shill-type, you're better off having a friend use an existing/longstanding ebay account to help you as opposed to creating a new ebay account for the purpose of shill-bidding your auction. That whole scenario is a little distatsteful though.   Lofapco Username: Lofapco Registered: 7-2007 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 2:32 pm:    Chazmo... I certainly don't know much about buying and selling on Ebay as I have only purchased a cell phone through there. Personally, as a player and not a collector (yet) I like to play a guitar before spending money, especially an acoustic as each guitar has it's own "voice". This guitar, while not a steal at that price, certainly is worth what the winning bidder paid. The three piece maple back is stunning. I have a 612C that I bought in 1993 and had a Highlander Piezo pickup installed. It is still my favorite guitar because of the beautiful maple back and sides. I play mostly fingerstyle and nothing sounds like maple for even tone across all the strings. I assume you already know that the Acoustic Guitar forum has a Taylor section and a classified section. You can always find some beauties in there if your still in the market. I also responded to your thread where you asked about the T5's. I just got one a couple weeks ago, (I traded my 2003 454 CE ltd straight up for it) I haven't looked back in regret. It is a great players guitar!   Johns Username: Johns Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 3:15 pm:    Doesn't the seller still have to pay ebay fees if a "shill-bid" is the winner?   Jeffsailor Username: Jeffsailor Registered: 1-2004 Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 9:49 pm:    John, Not necessarily. All the seller has to do is file a non-paying bidder claim with eBay. Note that this does not imply the bidder maliciously backed out of the auction terms. It could also be used whenever a seller and buyer have mutually agreed to not complete a transaction. An email is sent to the buyer and if the buyer confirms the seller's claim, the seller is granted a final value credit. This enables sellers to accept returns without having to pay a final value fee. js   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 2:14 pm:    JeffSailor, you are half right. The seller will still have to pay for the ad, which can vary in price depending on starting price, reserve price, BIN, and features. A full ad with lots of pics & a reserve or BIN can easily be $15-20.   Jeffsailor Username: Jeffsailor Registered: 1-2004 Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:16 am:    Dude, since you're a newbie I won't yell at you too much . Most of us realize that the listing fee is not refundable. Calling me half right is a bit insulting. Someone with thinner skin might be tempted to say you're half an AH, but I'll refrain from that... js   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 1:29 pm:    Wowee-Zowee, you got 2.5 years of "seniority" over me on the world famous, & envy of the world ICW website! Guess a Big Kahuna like yourself couldn't ever be wrong, huh? Fact is you were wrong, and I corrected you politely, no insult intended. You're welcome.   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 1:45 pm:    What a cheeky comment.   Jeffsailor Username: Jeffsailor Registered: 1-2004 Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 1:46 pm:    Well, you were right after all. I am half right. Your a whole ••• afterall!   Chazmo Username: Chazmo Registered: 3-2007 Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 1:50 pm:    (and, really, guys, just kidding around... no need for insults)   Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 4:56 pm:    Jeff was only half kidding!   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 9:56 pm:    Now THIS has to be a shill bid: Ebay Item #170143689157 It's an Ibanez LP Custom, but with EMG pickups and a "Zack Wild" thing going on with the truss rod cover and a sticker on the back. It's a $350 guitar if all original, and just one hour after posting, it has a $525 bid on it. Hmmmm. Are the pickups (EMG Zack Wild) super expensive or something? Sounds to me like somebody didn't want to pay the extra $5 for a higher starting bid or a reserve. It will be interesting to see where this one goes. -Chuck   Bobzilla Username: Bobzilla Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 7:35 am:    I dunno what the big thing is about EMG's anyway. I never cared for them personally. Maybe they handle the low end a bit better than certain pups but overall, I don't care for them.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 8:44 pm:    The guy with the 2350CS seems to be bidding against himself to raise the price on his auction. Pretty sad, actually: Ebay Item #170143689157 -Chuck

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