"Mega Deal!!!"

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Author Message   Talajuha Username: Talajuha Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 4:02 pm:    "MEGA DEAL!!!", says this web store. 25000+ EUR, US $35000+ for a guitar .... Hurry, they have only one of 59 http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/options.php?id=73 645 Juha   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 6:10 pm:    That's typically Fender, taking over a top brand and having relics made with the name of their famous endorsers attached to it. It's about nostalgia, selling emotions. But in fact what you buy is just a good fake. Ginger   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 5:05 pm:    So by definition, Ibanez reissues like the Cowboy and the Artwood Twin are "fakes"? Sounds like sour grapes to me. The Bear   Guitarwhisperer Username: Guitarwhisperer Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 6:35 pm:    Well, when Fender takes stuff over, they don't make them as well as the originals. Take SWR for example. I have a pre-fender SWR 550X bass head, still works, no issues. If you read the reviews since Fender took them over, the comments are usually something like "Sounded great for 3 months, then it started crapping out and I had to return it" or something along those lines. Pre-fender reviews aren't like that at all. I will attest that at the music store I used to work at, the SWR stuff wasn't built well. However, my pre-fender SWR 550X works perfectly and is extremely reliable. It seems like whenever fender takes over a company, they immediately start looking for ways to ruin whatever they take over by making it cheaper. I actually wouldn't even call it a good fake, just a fake, since it's probably not made as well! Same thing with Gretsch, Guild, etc. since Fender bought them. New Guilds sound thin compared to the originals, and the gretsches might as well be made in Korea! Sorry, that's just my opinion. Fender immediately starts looking at the almighty bottom line, and the product suffers as a result. Now, when a company like Ibanez reissues their own product, and makes it to the same spec, and uses the same people to make them, I think that's a different story, because the quality is there (I hope, I'll let y'all know when I get my AR5000!) The Sam Ash near me has an Artwood Twin reissue, and to me it's just as good as the original. Comes with an aluminum flight case too!   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 10:40 pm:    Ginger and Guitarwhisperer, You are way off base as far as Gretsch is concerned. Firstly, Fender did not take over Gretsch at the end of 2002 as many people incorrectly believe. Gretsch is still owned and operated by Fred Gretsch III and his wife Dinah. Fender's involvement is in the marketing and distribution of the product only. Nothing they do with the brand, product line, or distribution happens without the permission of the Gretsch company. Secondly, to imply the current Gretsch product is of inferior quality since Fender's involvement is totally wrong. Clearly you know nothing of the wholesale return to historically accurate construction methods and designs that occured following Fender's involvement. Fender quickly did away with the 5 ply incorrectly shaped boat anchors that Fred Gretsch was putting out (complete with incorrect headstock's, inlays, pickups, and wiring harness). Fender's involvement has given rise to a totally revamped product line which includes both historically accurate Gretsch guitars and innovative new takes on the old classics. It is generally agreed over at the Gretschpages that we are seeing another golden era for Gretsch. Cheers, Mark   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 10:55 pm:    Oh I forgot to add: In response to Guitarwhisperer's claim that Fender has cheapened the Gretsch product here is a list of many improvements to the line that Fender has brought about..... - Body construction re-engineered to vintage spec - Re-introduction of trestle bracing - Re-introduction of Melita & Space Control bridges - Ceramic magnets discontinued - all now Alnico - TV Jones pups standard on certain models - Re-introduction of CTS/Switchcraft/Belden harnesses - Re-introduction of lacquer finishes on certain models - Hard case included in list price - Grey speckle and Cowboy cases re-introduced - Got the Chet Atkins name back from Gibson Cheers, Mark   Acetan Username: Acetan Registered: 9-2003 Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 12:29 am:    ...but Mark, it is fashionable to trash anything new and why are you confusing everyone with facts?   Guitarwhisperer Username: Guitarwhisperer Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 1:31 am:    "Fender's involvement is in the marketing and distribution of the product only." Then,"Fender quickly did away with the 5 ply incorrectly shaped boat anchors that Fred Gretsch was putting out (complete with incorrect headstock's, inlays, pickups, and wiring harness). Fender's involvement has given rise to a totally revamped product line which includes both historically accurate Gretsch guitars and innovative new takes on the old classics." Seems like Fender's pretty involved to me. You forgot to include the statement "Fender also immediately moved production overseas." When I walk into GC, most of the gretsch's are made in Korea. I bought a Horton Heat model, and immediately sold it. In addition to your list of improvements, they also have bad neck angles and excessive falloff at the body. For $3500 I'd at least expect a straight neck and level frets. Is that the return to quality you're talking about? I'm not making a fashion statement, It just seems to me that when Fender takes something over, they immediately cheapen it, and start looking at the bottom line. We can disagree, that's why they make chocolate and vanilla, eh? It's not personal.   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 3:09 am:    Hi Guitarwhisperer, Disagreeing over chocolate and vanilla is one thing. I can totally respect that people have different likes and dislikes. However, making outright false statements with no factual basis is another thing entirely. You are quite correct, this is not personal. But when I see someone making mis-informed destructive statements, I think it is for everyones' benefit that they be addressed and corrected. Fender DID NOT move Gretsch production overseas. Here's a bit of history: Gretsch ceased making guitars in the good ol' USA when Baldwin ran them into the ground, around the end of the '70's, early '80's. I believe a factory fire was the final nail in the coffin. Fred Gretsch III brought the brand back to the market in 1989 with a complete line of Professional Series guitars. Guess where these were made? Japan!!!!!!!!!! Production of the Professional and Signature lines has continued non-stop in Japan since that time. The key factories involved are Terada, Fuji-Gen-Gakki and Dyna-Gakki. Furthermore, Gretsch introduced the Synchromatic line of budget models, made in Korea, in 1998. This was four years prior to Fender's involvement. Contrary to your claims, Fender are in no way responsible for the off-shoring and supposed cheapening of Gretsch. In fact, Fender are directly responsible for the re-introduction of USA built Gretsches. The Fender Custom Shop now makes special versions of the 6120 and White Falcon. The first USA built Gretsches in over 20 years!!! Now please tell me about your claims of bad neck angles. From what basis of fact do you make that statement?? True, some Gretsches in recent times have suffered neck hump issues, but this was not widespread, and is in no way exclusive to Gretsch branded guitars. What exactly was wrong with your Horton Heat model anyway? Any genuine fault could have been taken care of under warranty. Why did you sell it? Maybe you bought vanilla when you were really after chocolate all along! Cheers, Mark   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 3:25 am:    Thanks Munch, I didn't know any of that about Gretsch as they aren't exactly my cuppa tea. Certainly didn't know aboout the Japanese connection. I have heard stories about 50's Gretsch guitars falling apart because the glue goes off. Well not falling apart literally but with major repairs needed. So in your opinion, if one was going to buy a Gretsch....what year/value for money? six   Guitarwhisperer Username: Guitarwhisperer Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 10:37 am:    My claims of bad neck angles are from direct observation and that I run a repair shop. I've never been a fan of gretsch's anyway, so I don't know as much about the History of Gretsch as I thought I did, but I DO know how to evaluate an instrument's quality. You yourself say that some gretsches in recent times have had bad neck angles, although I think you tend to minimize the extent. The fact that it's not limited to gretsch guitars to me also indicates a general cheapening of the guitar industry in general. The japanese factories, while much better than the korean or chinese factories, still aren't neccesarily what they used to be. That's why a lot of us love vintage Ibanezes, including me. The neck humps that you describe are actually not neccesarily humps, although they might be. They usually aren't. If the neck were set perfectly straight with a straight edge, it would be straight untill it reaches the body, then, where the neck is glued onto the body, it angles down. This is what is termed falloff. It looks like a hump if the neck has relief. It's an artifact of how the instruments are constructed. Many acoustics have the same thing. On an archtop, a little falloff is okay, although top builders can build them without it, but every gretsch I've ever worked on has had an excessive amount. Gretsch wouldn't entertain the notion that their guitar had a bad neck angle with mine. That's how they build them! So, Apparently, Fender is NOT responsible for the low quality of the instruments. That's Gretsch's fault, then. I stand corrected. Are the USA one's any better? I haven't seen any of them, and a lot of my clients aren't afraid to spend money on their instruments. I know two guys that are FANATICAL about Gretsch, but that's it, and a lot of the guys I know who own one, never play it. I bought vanilla when I wanted chocolate, so I had to sell it. It's not my intention to make false statements about gretsch as far as historic facts are concerned, so it's good that someone knows their history, but the fact remains that Fender's involvement in OTHER products has only cheapened them, so I naturally assumed that was the issue with gretsch.   Lofapco Username: Lofapco Registered: 7-2007 Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 6:08 pm:    Well now that Fender has bought Karman the Ovation company, as announced on the Ovation Fan Club site today, I will be intersted to see if my Ovation Legend LX 12 string that I just got over the weekend in Trade for a 1980 Fender 75 Tube amp goes up in value for being "Pre-Fender"   Guitarwhisperer Username: Guitarwhisperer Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 7:27 pm:    My dad owns a Legend. Cha-Ching! Actually what'll probly happen is that a used pre-Fender will be more sellable, but not neccesarily more valuable. In the case of my SWR, I purchased it for the same price as a Fender SWR would have been used (if it were sellable, no one was buying them and there were several of THOSE on eBay at the time), but the reason I bought it was simply for the fact that it was pre-Fender. I paid less than half what a new one would have been, but I wouldn't have purchased a Fender one at all, new or used. I love the way SWR sounds. I did buy an SWR LA12 practice amp, post-Fender, and it recently started distorting, last time I turned it on. I've played it a total of about 5 times. Now it sits in my living room. I'm afraid to turn it on, 'cuz it might die permanently. It would cost more to fix it than to buy a new one, but a new one would be just as unreliable.   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 7:49 pm:    Hi Six, Thats a really hard question to answer. It depends on your own preference around vintage versus non-vintage. from a collectors standpoint, certainly vintage guitars from the pre-Baldwin era are where the smart money is. With old Gretsches you need to be especially vigilant in regard to authenticity, neck sets, and binding/glue joint deterioration. The most popular and sought after models are the 6120 Chet Atkins, and the 6136 White Falcons. From a players point of view, again avoid the Baldwin stuff and go either vintage or modern. My pick of the modern guitars would be the Powerjet or the Nashville Power Tenny. If you are buying modern, make sure you buy 2004 or later to be sure you get all of the improvements Fender have brought in. The neck hump issue was well documented in 2004, so to be really safe 2005 or newer is the best bet. This from a guy who owns a 2004 White Falcon (no neck hump) and a 1999 pre-Fender Duojet (complete with all the historical innacuracies). Both of them are killer guitars. Cheers, Mark   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 8:41 pm:    The creation of a aged 1959 REISSUE attached to the name of a famous artist (Brian Setzer in this case) and hanging a ridiculously high price tag on it, IS a marketing thing, and that's what Fender has been doing over the last decade, like they did with the Rory Gallagher Strat, the Paco Pastorius bass (first putting in frets, then remove them, damaging the body with screw holes etc.) I really don't understand that guitarists and bassists fall for this overpriced damaged stuff. Can't they wear their axes themselves? That there are new Gretsch guitars available for EUR 599.- now, is nice for beginning Rockabilly players. Psychologically it will feel better than playing a "Richwood". And after a while they can think about an upgrade with better pickups, and one step further they want a MIJ Gretsch 6120 and the next step they want the the real thing (Vintage USA). If they reach that last step depends on how they develop their talents. If you're really good, you EARN a good guitar. I have nothing against cheaper models of a good brand, from Korea or China. I have something against selling a myth with a price tag as if these guitars were real antiquities. THEY ARE NOT! Ginger   Roland_g303 Username: Roland_g303 Registered: 5-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:01 am:    The only thing I wish Gretsch would change is the roller bridge on their archtops. I know it's historically accurate, but the intonation is incredibly inaccurate. I tried a White Falcon a little while ago and that thing had terrible intonation. I've got a '99 Silver Jet and I prefer it to my friends 60's duo jet. Both are killer guitars in every respect however. Patrick   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:23 am:    Hi Patrick, The intonation problem with the space control and bar bridges was never a big issue back in the 50's & '60's. The string gauges were heavier and often had a wound G. As such, simply angling the bridge worked well, just as it still does for acoustic guitars. In more recent times we've all moved to lighter gauges and most often use unwound G strings. Unfortunately this change has exacerbated the intonation inaccuracies inherent in a non-adjustable bridge. The remedy? Play your Gretsch with at least .011 -.049's on it, a wound G if you can, or buy a Gretsch with a fully adjustable synchrosonic or tun-o-matic bridge. I play a White Falcon with the space control using .011's and an unwound G. The intonation is really quite good. The G string frets a little sharp, but not enough to throw a spanner in the works, and certainly not as bad as an old Tele!! Did you check the bridge for proper placement on the Falcon you played? Many people don't know how to place a floating bridge properly, especially in shops!!! Cheers, Mark   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:38 am:    Guitarwhisperer, The way you describe the neck hump/fall-off is right on the money. No relief gives you a fall-off, dial in some relief anf you have a hump over the neck/body joint. It is a shame that Fender/Gretsch did not help you out with your issue. I know of a few people who were taken care of extremely well by them. As far as I can tell, the neck issues were a problem for around 3-6 months in 2004. Fender/Gretsch responded to feedback/criticisms and got it sorted out in the factory quite quickly whilst fixing under warranty a number of guitars that were definitely humped. Cheers, Mark   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 1:41 am:    Gawd I love this stuff! I post two sentences and looky what happens *grins wickedly* Apparently Munch has been paying attention. Unlike those who repeat the rumors and innuendo that seems to be the "gospel" on the internet. It's no surprise that someone who owns/run/works-in a repair shop is going to see the bad apples. It's a "Repair" shop. Only the broken ones need repair. Hello? Everybody's entitled to their own opinion. I think Fender's doing just fine with their acquisitions. Jackson, Guild and Gretsch (among others) were on their way out of business before Fender got involved. If there's customers out there who wanna spend 5 digits of their money on a replica of somebody else's guitars, let 'em. More than a few folks here spent large sums on recent recreations by Hoshino. What's the difference? The Bear   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 2:28 am:    Hmmm, I think I'll steer clear of all them Gretschesezzzz. Maybe I'll put those TV jones pups in a Tele. Ginger. One thing about relic guitars...you don't have to worry about scratching and chipping them. They're players from the start. If you're smart, you'll look out for a cheaper used one.. six   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 4:43 am:    Hey Six, Its honestly not as hard to get a good Gretsch as it may sound. Sheesh, if this was a discussion on Les Pauls, the list of traps for young players would be as long as a phone book!! What with all those dodgy neck angles on the '52's, faked '59's, fake parts, sandwich bodies, head stock breaks, headstock angles, volutes etc etc etc!!!!! Tell me that this doesn't whet your appetite even just a little bit!!! Cheers, Mark   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 5:17 am:    Six, I always do and most of the time I pick the minty ones and end up treating them like they're brand new, with all the pampering and concern... But I must say, that my Gallagher Doc Watson, which I bought well-used (over 25 years old), is a real joy because I'm not worrying of small scratches or anything. Of course I watch out for blunt objects and the floor, but that's different from worrying about an untouched satin open pore finish on a flattop with no pickguard, like my Lakewood D-8. For the same reason I kept the Simon and Patrick 6 CEDEQ with the top repair and sold the one with the untouched top (with the tobacco stench): NO WORRIES, it was repaired before! Mentally it works really liberating! That's why I have two The Paul '78s, one is a slightly customized player: NO WORRIES! I think it's good for every playing collector to have a few real PLAYER'S GUITARS or "working horses", so that he doesn't forget what these instruments were made for... BTW Six, do you already own this part? http://www.wdmusic.com/bigsby_fender_tele_reg_conv ersion_24536_prd1.htm 'cause I guess you want the TV Jones in the neck position... Ginger   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 5:47 am:    Hey Six, You do know that TV Jone makes a Tele bridge that houses a filtertron don't you?   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 6:03 am:    Munch, WOW NO! I didn't know that. That is soooo cool. 1. Any idea what they would sound like in a Tele? 2. Would you still be able to put the old 3 brass saddles onto that bridge plate? I kinda like the duojet. What's the one that George Harrison used to play a lot. That was a beauty. Ginger No I was thinking TV Jones Filtertron's in both neck and bridge. Bigsby's make me nervous six   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 7:45 am:    I think that putting 3 brass saddles in it is out of the question. Then you would have to drill 3 extra holes between the other 6. I would NOT even try it. It seems possible to replace the metal saddles with 6 Graphtech American Stratocaster saddles from what I see... That could improve the sustain too. And you have strat intonation, which is better than the old 3-saddle Tele ashtray. Ginger   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 8:25 am:    BTW, what I don't understand, is that nobody seems to have tried a construction with the best of both worlds: an ashtray with 6 saddles (6 screw holes) made of brass of carbon composite. But what I know for sure is that Graphtech makes saddles for modern tele bridges (the ones with no ashtray sides). I wonder what exactly is right about this ashtray model being a "tone monster" because of its shape. If that's true, why didn't they make a hybrid yet? And then different versions for famous alternative pickups, not just humbuckers, but also P90s/P100s, Gretsch/DeArmond shape pickups, you name it...? The problem is probably: on what scale would you produce the stuff? Would there be enough market? But I guess the Fender marketeers could figure that out. Ginger   Fendouglas Username: Fendouglas Registered: 7-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 11:33 am:    Sorry to go off thread a bit, but talk of Baldwin reminds me of something that happened nearly 30 years ago. In 1978, I bought a Guild D40 (the first new) Guitar I had owned and the owner of the (small) music shop said to bring it back after a couple of months and his 'man' would set it up for me. His 'man' turned out to be Jimmy Burns - the designer of the 60s series of guitars (i.e. Burns Black Bison etc) that were the 'must haves' for British Bands in the 60s (cos The Shadows had them) and anyway American Guitars were as rare as hen's teeth. Anyway, Jimmy had sold out his company to Baldwin in the late 60s (they initially produced a series of Burns-Baldwin models) for £1.75 million - big bucks then - and his family had managed to •••• it all up against the wall and when I met him he was unemployed and broke but he did a drawing for me (on his welfare benefit card) of a 6 in line headstock that he was going to call the "Burns Concorde" and make his fortune (again). I never saw Jimmy again but shortly after that I saw a Jackson Charvel with the very same headstock (in fact the Ibanez Lonestar Headstock also has similarities) and often wondered whether Jimmy had sold his design - or just got ripped off again   Roland_g303 Username: Roland_g303 Registered: 5-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:30 pm:    Hey Munch, Those are some beautiful Gretsch guitars that you have. I played the White Falcon at Fuller's Vintage when I was down in Houston doing work. It was pretty cool, but I believe they did have it set up with some lighter gauge strings. I really preferred the Nashville Setzer over it though, just because it was more of a players guitar. I really enjoy the Gretsch lines, but they're way to expensive new. They're resale value is considerably lower and that's why I bought mine used. Lucky for me as a buyer as I have no intentions of ever selling my Silver Jet. Patrick   Guitarwhisperer Username: Guitarwhisperer Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 1:29 pm:    I see a lot of "bad apples", true, but many people buy guitars then drop them off for a customized setup, 'cuz I know how they play and what they're looking for. The factories do a general setup, but there's simply no way they can set them up to make everybody happy. I don't have a one-size-fits-all setup, I work with the person to make sure it's right for their style and technique. A factory can't do that. So, even though it's a "repair shop" I really do more than just repair defective/broken guitars. I also do modifications, setup, and general maintenance. I also see a lot of most every manufacturer, some are more problematic then others. My Horton Heat was a 2006 model, after the neck angle corrections, which is why they prob'ly didn't want to mess with mine. Ash tray telecaster bridges are made of steel construction, which has a noticeable affect on the pickup, altering the shape of the magnetic flux field and changing the tone of the pickup (to me) dramatically over the brass/chrome-plated deluxe bridge. The effect is very noticeable on single coils, and tends to make humbuckers harsher sounding than most people prefer. It makes sense to say that most people don't know how to set a floating bridge, but not to add "especially in shops", unless the shop is run by a guitarist or salesman who got bored and one day decided that since he knows how to play 'em he can work on 'em too. There's a FEW of those around, but I'd say that most shops have a guy who's been doing nothing but work on guitars, and has seen/touched more guitars than the average person will ever see, much less work on. I understand that someone fanatical about these instruments might not like my opinions, but like I said before, it's not personal, but I HAVE seen a lot of instruments, know how to set a floating bridge, evaluate build quality etc...   Fox Username: Fox Registered: 2-2003 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 3:21 pm:    Fendouglas, Jim Burns did really make the Concorde, as well as Mirage and LG24 later.. And, as "usual" the company went belly-up again after making The Steer and The Scorpion, in early 80's..   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 8:07 pm:    Ginger - I prefer the tone and feel under the right palm of the 3 brass saddles/ashtray set up over the 6 Strat type saddles/flat plate. six   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 8:29 pm:    Guitarwhisper, When I said "shops" I meant retail stores not "repair shops". Maybe a mis-understanding brought about by differences in the lingo between Australia and the US. I reckon there are very few retail stores that you can walk into and find a properly intonated floating bridge. At least in my experience. Cheers, Mark   Guitarwhisperer Username: Guitarwhisperer Registered: 6-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 8:33 pm:    Hey Munch, is that a Kendrick amp behind your Gretsch'ses?   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 2-2001 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 8:39 pm:    No its a homebrew clone of a 5F4 tweed super. A mate of mine builds them and its just the best amp I've ever owned. Its not 100% faithful to the original though. Its got a Mercury Magnetics Bassman PT, altered filtering for tighter bottom end, and runs through 2x12"s instead of the 10"s. Cheers, Mark   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 11:15 pm:    Six, there is at least one alternative just in between the two that you mentioned: 6 round tele saddles (Graphtech String Saver model PS-8166-00). They are made for the Albert Collins Telecaster. That is IF you want to use that TV Jones tele bridge with the 6 screw holes. If you add 3 holes to that one it becomes Emmenthaler cheese with no cheese left. Ginger   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 5:55 am:    I see what you mean Ginger. six

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