How can we avoid outbidding each other?

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Author Message Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 11:40 am:    Hi all! I placed this message also in another thread, but I'll repeat it here in order to reach as much of you as possible. I've been thinking: I found it somewhat inconvenient that Ginger and I were bidding against each other on that beautiful 2355M on Ebay. Reading the other thread I found out that Tristan was the first of our family to bid (and show interest), so I was a compatitor for one of our "family members" also, without knowing it, because I did not know Tristan's user name on Ebay. Problem: how do we know that us Ibanez addicts are bidding against each other, since we don't know each other's user names at Ebay. I think that bidding on an item when already someone of us is at it is simply "not done". Above that: why would we complain about rising prices on Ibanez vintage guitars when we make the prices that high by bidding against each other? Could we simply think of a system whereby we add "ICW" to our Ebay user names, so that we immediately can see that one of our "family" is seriously interested in the offered item? We could have contact off-line in order to inform each other about the maximum price we had in mind. In case "number one"'s maximum bid gets overbid by a stranger, "number two" could take over etc. Just a thought..... Kind greetz, Harry Holmis63 Username: Holmis63 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 1:42 pm:    Hi Harry! Maybe this is something for you or for Ginger whoever lost the bidding on that ebay 2355. http://www.blocket.se/vi/9427213.htm?ca=15_s Translation: Ibanez 2355, 1974. Ibanez es 175 in very good contition. 7300 sek = $1000. Holmis63 Tristan Username: Tristan Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 3:23 pm:    That's a very nice one indeed! I contacted him, thank you Holmis63. I wonder about this site, it's all swedish, is it reliable? (that is, for a case of oversea transactions) and also, what paying methods they use, if you know? and thanks, again. Harry, I actually think it's a good idea, but very difficult to maintain.. I own many guitars, but I'm pretty new with eBay auctions, so I might have been outbid anyways, even if you and Ginger wouldn't have bid.. but maybe not. heh, nevermind. Holmis63 Username: Holmis63 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 4:19 pm:    Hi Tristan! I´ve used Blocket once but as i live in Sweden i traveled to the seller and closed the deal there. I´ve heard and talked with others about the sight (blocket) a lot and i´ve never heard about any scam deals. You know, here in Sweden we are very careful and onest and don´t fool one another. Of course, there´s always unreliable people around everywhere but this one is as reliable it can get. Hence, i think it´s very reliable. About paying method, you have to decide that yourself, suggest a safe method to the seller and i think it will work out to the best. Good luck! Holmis63 Tristan Username: Tristan Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 4:45 pm:    Holmis63, I was actually after a 2533M, but this one is a real beauty aswell, gotta love this antique sunburst paint. I did "Mejla annonsören", I hope that meant "Contact the seller" As soon as I recieve more pics and information, I think it's a fine piece for me to go for. I can't wait to play my bop runs on a "real" full blown jazzbox. That has to be it. My AS200 is great but it's not deep enough like 60's Joe Pass/Herb Ellis/Barney Kessel tone, and yeah it's all in the fingers, man! heh, not only. Holmis63 Username: Holmis63 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 5:42 pm:    Tristan, yeah, "mejla annonsören" means send a mail to the advertiser. I´ts fun when it´s the other way around, it´s usually we not English speeking people that got problem but not this time. Well, maybe i´m in trouble too, read the last sentense and lol! This summer there was The European shampionship in atletics here in Gothenburg. A lot of bands and musicians visited the town and Knock out Greg, a real good Rockabilly-jazz-blues fussion band played in a tent one evening. The guitarist played a 2355 and that tone, it´s like a big bell in a church. Hard to describe but that old real honest sound, no stomp boxes or anything else, just a hollow body and an old twin, nice!!! And yeah, you have to love that old sunburst finish. But i´m even more in love with that ww or tobago sunburst finish or whatever they call it on the mid to late 70:s artists like 2622 and 2619. I´ve got three ibanezes, twoo 70:s, both natural and one 2004, honey sunburst but no one with that ww finish, guess what´s my next investment! Holmis63 Holmis63 Username: Holmis63 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 6:16 pm:    Tristan! Again, i´m a nagy one! About paying methods. if you click on "använd internetgirot" beneath "mejla annonsören" you come to a site, internetgirot.se. They have a safe paying method, the square to the left says: For byers: You reciev and decide if you are satisfied with the Item before you pay the money to the seller. And the square beside that one says: For sellers: You know that you got the money before you send the Item to the byer. Sounds like a safe paying method to me. Hope you understand my English, though it´s important in this matter! Holmis63 Tristan Username: Tristan Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 6:41 pm:    Definatly, that seems safe enough. I guess now I need to wait for him to get back to me with more information, we'll see what can come up of this. Thanks a bunch! Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 8:09 pm:    Harry, I found the first bids on this guitar insultingly low. I didn't find it inconvenient that we bid against each other, because at that very moment the bids were still pretty low for this guitar. They stayed that low for a long time, and it was an opportunity for all of us. We all know pretty well what it's worth. Bidding the first dollar doesn't give you exclusive rights. Besides, as far as I know Tristan wasn't outbid by a member. This guitar is worth every cent. When Orval outbid Dave_G on a 2674CA, we didn't hear Dave complaining, because he knows that it is all in the game. Tristan Username: Tristan Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 8:18 pm:    You didn't hear me complaining either, did you? Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 9:16 pm:    No, I didn't. But I was surprised to see that Harry started this thread. When he says, he felt inconvenient bidding against me, and that he wouldn't have bid against you, if he had known elaforge is a member of ICW, I doubt that. He knew who Gemberbier was, and he didn't stop bidding either. He wanted that guitar, just like we all did. But at a low price. We both had about the same max price in mind. I stepped out when you raised to 900 and for a good reason. I have the same guitar but then with a post-lawsuit headstock (1976). How bad is it for me that I didn't get it? Probably I would have had great difficulty choosing which one I should keep (mine is MINT). For you it is different. You knew exactly what you wanted: this would have been your first 2355M and a real beauty! If you would have known, someone would bid �1110.- you wouldn't have bid �1100.- but �1125.- or something, because you don't let it go for the price of a set of strings. If you just had had a few more seconds... Before you raised to 900, you can say that all bidding was opportunity bidding. As it stayed on 381 for such a long time, we would have been nuts to let it go. This was not a Bradley, but the real McCoy and pre-lawsuit. I'm sure you find a good 2355 or 2355M, because you're prepared to pay the price that it is worth. And I saw you act fast: 900, 1000, 1100. Good luck! Ginger Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 3:25 am:    Gember You write:"he knew who Gemberbier was but did not stop bidding". If you look at the bidding history of the 2355M you can see that I was bidding way before you and I was highest bidder around the range of 600 Euro when suddenly you popped up and started outbidding me. So YOU knew who "harrykruis" was but you didn't bother either, did you? I think it's a pity that we Ibanez "brothers" go outbid each other. We all know what some items are worth, but that does not mean that we should drive each other to that price just to do "the guitar justice". Trying to get your hands on a guitar isn't about paying the price it is supposed to be worth,is it? We should be happy for one another that sometimes we can get our hands on an item for a real cheap price. I've seen Black Eagle basses go for $600, but also for 2000+ dollars. Does that mean that at each next auction of a Black Eagle we drive each other to that high price? Or could we feel lucky for somebody if he wins one for 500? Or do we outbid him to get the selling price in the range of 2000 dollars just "to do the bass justice"? Come on!! Believe it or not Gember: if I had known that elaforge was an ICW member I really would not have been bidding. Simply because I think it's "not done". But hey...that's just my thought. You are fully entitled to think otherways. Harry Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 8:40 am:    You're right, I looked it up, you bid before me. But my individual bidding process is a process that starts days before I give my first bid, from the moment Phatphred invited all of us to bid. It is a process of calculating how far I would go (including shipping cost) and this one was in Germany, so at lower shipping cost since I've got relatives there, who come over on a regular basis, and where I can stay for the night. I look what happens and I see a standstill on 350 since September 12th. So I start talking to the Mrs, what I should do. We talk about should I buy another guitar and for what purpose... pre-lawsuit against post-lawsuit... keeping the best... convincing her that at this ridiculous price I would be nuts to let it go... Then the 16th goodvibes bids 352, still ridiculous... I say: If this goes on this way, I'm going to jump on it. Elaforge gets outbid by you Harry (450) and you got outbid by carelrichel 606 over 575 and I outbid carelrichel 612.88 over 606. Then we started our tug-of-war because the max price we had in mind was about the same. Tristan shook us both off 900 over 643.93 which was a hughe step (256.06 euro). So, I guess our limits were somewhere in between. I BID TO GET A GUITAR, within certain price limits I've discussed with the Mrs before, because an all original pre-lawsuit could have been an improvement or a beautiful sister for my MINT 1976 guitar. I only bid on guitars or parts that are interesting for me. You didn't see me bidding on the customized 2355 with the gold parts, the upside down tuners and all the humbug. It went too cheap also, because all the original parts were with it. But there was no possibility that it wouldn't have been an improvement for my collection. We didn't outbid Elaforge/Tristan, he got sniped at 1110 euro, 10 seconds BEFORE he gave his last 1100 euro bid. Or do you really think this Foresteasy guy would have pulled back if we would have had ICW behind our usernames? This would encourage low balling. Put ICW behind your name and bid the first 1$ and you would have eliminated all serious competition. It would falsify RusselW's value statistics, and on the long term really devaluate the value of our collections. Shill bidding also falsifies these statistics. Bidding for items you don't want, is somewhat the same and has the same effect. People who do this are in fact not market players but intriguers. Interested people that step out the moment they see a buyer's kartel code are in fact also intriguers. How would you find it, when we all stepped out after the first ICW bid for one of your guitars? You take it from me: when you've got something interesting to offer, I won't. That's the system: May the best man win. I think that's fair. Ginger Phatphred Username: Phatphred Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 9:52 am:    I hope Johns can consider this. How about having a non-compulsory field in a member profile in which members can give their eBay handle? Better still if it could be searchable separately, i.e. for a quick result in the heat of an auction. I tend to the view that, ICW member or not, if I want a guitar more than the next guy and am prepared to get into more trouble just to get hold of it, that's my problem. I don't think anyone would step aside for me in the scramble. Don't get me wrong: I love you all, but I remember the time I chose not to be quiet about my interest in the Johnny Smith http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/discus/messages/16/16614.html?1152659047 and Tim alerted Mike, who could have gone for it...or not, and anyone else might have been a keener bidder at the time, but wasn't. As far as I'm concerned, c'est la guerre. The alternative is to keep quiet, or even, I suppose, feign lack of interest: would that be in the family spirit? Family members are close enough to hurt you more, but we've seen enough squabbling recently for the answer to be: you bet!! Ibanezfreak1960 Username: Ibanezfreak1960 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 10:27 am:    Even though I rarley bid and have only purchased 1 guitar from ebay I think the best way to handle it is try to be the winner and if not don't get sore at whoever is. Thats the the fun of ebay auctions. Harry Username: Harry Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:04 pm:    Okay, clear enough.... I think I have to reconsider my point of view towards both the "may the best man -he who has to spend the most money- win"-Ebay principle AND my social feelings towards ICW members..... Seems the World has become a place where everybody more and more tends to just fight for his own success or survival, I guess. Must be my damned naivety again that made me believe otherways..... Harry Lespaul Username: Lespaul Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:48 pm:    FWIW, I do not bid if I recognize certain ICW members being the highest bidder late in the auction (I often snipe). If the auction is still young I usually contact the other ICW-er off-line and discuss who wants it most, i.e. who has the highest max. bid. So I am with you, Harry. I do not consider myself naive acting like this. Actually I feel pretty good about it. There are no guitars I really can't live without out there anyway. YMMV, Paul Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 4:45 pm:    BTW Phatphred, I was really happy for you, that you got the Bradley 2355M. I didn't bid, (though I could), because the Bradley is not better than my MINT 1976 Ibanez 2355M. The only possible step forward could (perhaps) be a pre-lawsuit MINT or at least near mint Ibanez 2355M (I would like to compare them). Just like Ibanezfreak1960, I rarely bid. Actually this was the second time. I bid once on a Super70 pickup (but it went wrong because I typed a . instead of a , followed by two digits on a non-English Ebay site, so I was lucky that I didn't add another digit) and once on this 2355M. Harry, we were outbid with more than 465 euro, and now we'll have to wait until Tristan has got what he wants, because he showed us what he's prepared to pay. Until then we both will have a Calimero feeling on the all original 2355m auctions: "They is big, me is small and that ain't fair..." Good luck next time, Ginger Snowjays Username: Snowjays Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 8:19 pm:    Harry, 9 times out of 10 I use a snipe. It's only on a rare occassions that I am unsure of a purchase price that I'll bid simply to try and get an idea of the market price for a guitar. Yes, their are those who simply have more money than the rest of us, and unfortunately their are those who seem to get a cheap thrill bidding to push the price up. But the idea that if some else bids first doesn't gel when there are others that have already activated a snipe. I usually look for the telltale Q & A section as to who has an interest. Your are easy to see by the freight question (how much disassembled?), but not all sellers put up there Q & A's. Most of the time, unless your in the USA, then you would only be bidding against a few other ICW members in your region, which isn't all that bad. Jchester Username: Jchester Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 8:07 pm:    "9 times out of 10 I use a snipe." Me too 'jays. I don't understand anyone bidding 5 or 6 days out. I often think that they're shills for the seller. Jimmys Username: Jimmys Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 9:04 am:    Sometimes you may need to bid early (e.g. '5 or 6 days out') just to remove a 'buy it now' price that you think is too high for yourself but possibly still realistic for some, although at the very high end of what you'd expect the item to sell for. This gives yourself some time to think if you would really like to compete for the item at the end and at what maximum bid. You'd only do this if the auction starting price was low enough that you'd either be happy to win the item at this price, or that you could be sure that you would not win the auction in the end if you did not place further bids. I think I just confused everyone - oh well, it has worked for me a few times. Obviously, you would just use the buy it now option if the price was not too high in the first place. I agree that it is not a good idea to have our eBay business mixed up with our ICW forum interests. Pitviper Username: Pitviper Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 6:20 am:    Alls fair in love and war around here Harry, but it does depend on who is bidding...while I agree with you in principle, it's just not going to happen when someone wants something real bad. As a rule I don't normally bid against another member here. I got outbid by michalkaufman on an auction..he knew who PitViper was....but that didn't matter to him, and he sniped it at the end by $1 because he wanted it more and was willing to pay more.......sometimes that's just the way things go. Would be nice to live in the other world however. Phatphred Username: Phatphred Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 7:40 am:    Still, only one person is going to get the guitar, right? I suppose Solomon would've known how to handle the problem if it concerned an Artwood Twin Johns Username: Johns Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 1:36 pm:    Harry: It's a very admirable sentiment you have, but with nearly 3200 registered ICW users, it's seems it would be rather impractical. I always look at bidder IDs on auctions that I'm planning on participating in. There have been a few occassions where I've corresponded with another ICW member to see how serious they were and coordinate our efforts, if possible. Otherwise, I just accept that the auction form of selling is designed to benefit a seller by pitting serious buyers against each other. Pit: I've often lost auctions by what appears to be $5.00 or less. My first regret is that I should have just bid that extra $5.00 or so. In reality, the automated bidding process only makes it look like the difference between winnning and losing is $5.00. The winner's max bid may well have been $100.00 more than mine. My eBay motto: Do your research! Then figure your max bid according to what the item is worth to you, then add 5% to it. Next if your friendly with a fellow ICWer that is also bidding, email and tactfully ask if they are serious or not. Depending on the answer, bid (or not) accordingly. Pitviper Username: Pitviper Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 1:27 am:    So true John...I did't email mike because he didn't bid until the end. But I do empathise with Harry on this one. Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away..... Hansjuergen Username: Hansjuergen Registered: 09-2006 Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 2:23 am:    I once started a thread on the Tokai forum about forum users and their ebay accounts in order to build some trust in the Tokai community (who sells what how often and so on). So far there have been many postings in that thread where people voluntarily give their nick names etc. ZZee ya, Hans-Jürgen

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