Ebay tricksters, hunted, reported, re...

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Author Message Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 10:12 am:    "Ladies and gentlemen, we've got him!" Yesterday night I started a mission, for two important reasons: 1) out of annoyance and 2) to protect my fellow collectors Through Johns's lawsuit button I found a WHITE LP replica on Ebay with all kinds of misleading aspects on it: - Misleading title: "Ibanez Custom lawsuit guitar very rare 1975". I didn't write down the serial nr: but it was a 77 with a Guild headstock. - Excessive shipping cost: $250.- There were some (shill?) bids ($149.xx) but If for instance someone should have sniped at $450.-it would have cost him $700.- You can see a thumbnail of it in Google cache at $115.51 : http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:F1VYqGevvLgJ:instruments.search.ebay.ca/iba nez_Musical-Instruments_W0QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ2QQsacatZ619+Ibanez+lawsuit+1975+rare&h l=nl&gl=nl&ct=clnk&cd=8 I hereby invite you all to: - note all important aspects (the item nr, the Ebay identity of the trickster, and (which I forgot) the serial nr of the guitar) - then report it to Ebay to have it removed and - post warnings and results of your action in this thread, and declare this hunt for opened. Banzai!!! Ginger Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 4:30 pm:    And it's back! SERIAL NUMBER ---E772151 But he learned fast! Better info, and says he's 'fixed' the shipping, with an apology. http://cgi.ebay.com/IBANEZ-CUSTOM-LAWSUIT-GUITAR-VERY-RARE-1977_W0QQitemZ3200338 64683QQihZ011QQcategoryZ119094QQtcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Now he uses UPS Ground. You can calculate the shipping by entering your postal code. I tried various codes, and it's at least $155.02 But that's better than the $250.- shipping he asked in the first add. I think, there must be cheaper ways to ship a guitar in the USA. But I live in a small European country. German companies ship for €8.- to our country. So, what's the most affordable safe way of shipping in the USA? I guess Dave_G will know, he's the shipping expert. Perhaps we need another thread for this, if it doesn't exist yet. For now, be warned and add $155.- to the price of the guitar, because thats's what it will really cost this way! Ginger Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 4:55 pm:    Ginger...The Ebay shipping calcluator never works right. I put in my zip code into this one and it came up $155 for next day delivery. As long as this guitar is shipped before 3:00, it gets to all of NJ (and most of the east coast) next day anyway for-are you ready for this ?-$17.84......Worst case senario the guitar would take 2 days, since next day was not specified. The seller has to change the shipping preference to read "ground" rather than Next Day and-I suspect-that the quoted price would be closer to reality. I don't think this is a case of someone trying to scam anyone..I think the seller has no idea what he is selling and believes that this guitar is something special and worth some $...read the description..its "post lawsuit"-thats a new term for me-AND its the "THE SAME GUITAR THAT GOT GIBSON SUED"!!! its fairly obvious that-if this guy is a scammer-he has not done his homework and is unfamilar and totally confused with Ibanez guitars and the concept of copycat headstocks and the threatened litigation by the big 3 in the mid 70's. Johns Username: Johns Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 11:53 pm:    Dave: I suspect you are correct. His feedback doesn't show any guitar related items. Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 5:18 am:    I'm surprised "post lawsuit" is a new term for you, Dave. Some people tend to call any Ibanez that looks like a Gibson a "lawsuit" guitar. The case was built up on the shape of the headstock which was "open book". Because Hoshino gave orders to change the headstocks to the same shape as Guild headstocks had before the lawsuit was filed in 1977, these guitars were no object of legal conflict anymore. They are "post lawsuit". Spiro put it this way: Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 05:15 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There is no such thing as a lawsuit guitar!!! There is Pre- Lawsuit and Post Lawsuit guitars but no lawsuit guitar!! No specific guitar was responsible for the lawsuit. It was all of the the gibson style copies that influenced the lawsuit taken out on Ibanez. The oher thing people have to realise is that there is guitars with the open book headstock that were actually sold well after the lawsuit in other countries... They had to get rid of what stock was left.. Greco guitars continued with the open book headstock into the mid eighties.." In the first ad, the seller didn't only use "lawsuit" in the title, but also "1975" and "very rare"! Further he mentioned this E77 serial number in his text and explicitly called it "PRE LAWSUIT" And he asked $250.- for shipping within the USA. If you didn't read about the shipping, you would agree on that by bidding. So, for example if you would have bid $1.- it would have cost you $251.- a guitar of $250.- would have cost you $500.-and a guitar of $500.- would have cost you $750.-!! After I reported it to Ebay, he knew exactly what to change in the ad. I didn't tell him that! Unless he reads ICW. But then he could have signed in and put it in the Free Classifieds. Ginger Dave_g Username: Dave_g Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 11:03 am:    Ginger...Its called sarcasm.....Besides the term "Post Lawsuit" is just stupid #1) There never was a lawsuit #2) Saying "post lawsuit" is like calling all guitars "Post WWI".....or "Post Jurissac"...its just stupid. (Will all guitars after this rant be refered to as "Post Post" ?) I think were stuck with the term "Lawsuit" even though its misleading etc and doesn't actually explain the concept nor the history of copycat headstocks its pretty much attached to the alure of Vintage imports and-quite frankly-responsible for the inflated prices on the early copies (the prices did not go up due to the quality of the early copies-these early copies were terrible). I do not think that we should perpetuate the absurity by coining yet another useless and stupid moniker. Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 6:45 pm:    I agree, Dave. Brand, type, color + hardware, year and/or serial number and description of the headstock shape. That's about all we need to know. Just a description that is as objective as possible. Although that's difficult for objects which are basically bought because of emotional impulses. How do you describe the sound of a guitar that really touches your soul? I guess for that part we're stuck with subjective descriptions like: "awesome", "the best I've ever heard", "a sound to die for", "unbeatable" etc. But that's not the same as "coloring" objective features of a guitar or lying about them. BTW: Is JohnS quoting a true story in the following post? Username: Johns Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 08:27 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim: According to Guitar Stories, Vol.I, page 110: "Norlin finally filed suit in Federal District Court in Philadephia. On June 28, 1977, to be precise, Gibson Vs. Elger Co. was opened in Judge Ditter's court, with Gibson claiming trademark infringement based on the duplicate headstock design of the Ibanez copies." In this quote the date it was filed is mentioned and even the judge is called by name. So the author seems to have done some serious investigation here. I know judges may give both parties some time to settle the case out of court. Then there is no verdict, but a settlement. If this was the case, would it mean that there was no lawsuit? Well, if Elger was indeed sued at law, I would say there was. But it never came to a verdict, so the judge didn't order Elger to change the headstocks and/or pay for damages. But this is all based on second or third hand information. I didn't go to Philadelphia to check it. Anyway, lawsuit or not... IMO you're absolutely right about the "inflated" prices of these guitars. They are incomparable to you Artists and Musicians. Ginger Jchester Username: Jchester Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 10:54 pm:    Just to be the "Devil's Advocate"... The "Pre vs. Post" or "Open Book/Moustasche vs. Tulip" descriptions are at the very least SEMI USEFUL in getting a feel for when these guitars were produced. Granted... these terms are abused, on a daily basis on EBay... but as annoying as they may be, they DO also help US zero in on the objects of our desires... THE GOOD $HIT! Inacurate... ABSOLUTELY, Greedy... EVEN WORSE!!! BUT... that's what happens with any commodity that's mushrooming in value! We just have to keep the Bull$hit Artists honest, through our superior knowledge of the subject! Isn't that why we're here? I know it's a pain in the a$$, trying to educate the ignorant... but with this forum... we have made major strides... and we've all made some OUTSTANDING finds for ourselves... RIGHT??? ...just my opinion Your milage may vary JC Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 05-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 6:51 am:    Typo. Meant to say: "They're incomparable to YOUR Artists and Musicians." (Particularly referring to Dave_G's collection). But I guess it goes for most Artists and Musicians, as long as they're in about the same condition as his guitars. (He's like Hefner, a bit picky, but he knows exactly when to strike: his pictures of type collections show first class guitar playboy hareems. But of course he's not so vain, that he would place himself in the midst of his girls, like Hef does.) Ginger

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