| Author |
Message |
Ratfinks3
Username: Ratfinks3
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 9:17 pm: | |
I am playing a 95 AS120 through a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe. Here is the problem. I get the BLAST of the amp at a very low volume. In other words, I need to gradually turn up the volume with the room I play in three nights a week. With the way that amp is designed, setting it on 1 or 2 is too loud as we mic everything. You just can't set it to a quiet level. Is there any way to tone down the amp electronically to get full use of the tube sound, like caps on the volume pot or changing the volume pots? (ie; warmed up tubes sound great at a higher electrical charge, which I use 1960 RCA black face 6L6's now). You just cant get the prefered sound at a very low volume. I tried the torres tone kit but it just makes it brighter sounding at a lower volume. It's got to be at about 4 or 5 then it's so loud you cant hear the rest of the band. It's a sweet combomation of amp vs guitar and I hate to loose it but with the large room we are in and the way our sound people have things set up, it blows us out of the pit. I use a Boss AB-2 switch for changing amps betweem my acoustic guitar Ibanez Aw200 and Larrivee L03-RE, and electric guitar Strat and AS120, but the 120 sounds best through the Fender tube amp mentioned above. One suggestion was to put a 2 inch piece of foam over the front of the amp and cut a small round hole in it for the mic. That way the mic would pick up the amps true sound and the band would not have sore ears after the show. My sound guys are going to kill me and my fellow guitarist is as well if I don't get this problem fixed. ASAP HELP ME GUYS ?????? Mike |
Acetan
Username: Acetan
Registered: 09-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 2:55 am: | |
This is what you need, a Zvex.
 |
Flatbag
Username: Flatbag
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 6:20 am: | |
I would have thought a good master volume mod would do the trick? There is also the option of an attenuator, and no need for the expensive THD things either - my amp guy makes an attenuator for up to 50 watts for something like $25. I know it definitely works for an 8 ohm load, not sure if the option is there for other impedances though (but from memory the Hot Rod Deluxe is 8 ohms?). |
Fingersmcoy
Username: Fingersmcoy
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 10:43 am: | |
Does your guitar have a vol. pot? |
Holmis63
Username: Holmis63
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 1:10 pm: | |
I put a set(a pair)of THD yellow yackets in my 185 watt Fender super twin rewerb!
That just did what you asking for, the amp break up much earlier. Before the switch it "never"
(maybe at 6-7 on the volume knob but at that volume you couldnīt stay in the same room) breaked and now it break up at 2-3 on the volume knob. The change is reversable, lower the outeffect to 30-40% of the original outeffect and turns the amp from a class A/B to a class A circuit amp!
I do recomend this switch on Fender amps, i searched for years after that twangy fender amp sound at lower volumes and now i got it! It works really god with my Artists and the Bob Weir, but when i plug the old strat in it blow everything else away.
Holmis63 |
Munch
Username: Munch
Registered: 02-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 5:54 pm: | |
How about trying simple things first?
Try a volume pedal in the effects loop or between the pre-out/power-in jacks. This should allow you to turn the amp up as much as you like but use the volume pedal to moderate how much signal hits the power amp.
Another option is to put a 12AT7 into the V1 (and /or V2) tube sockets instead of the 12AX7's. This has the effect of lowering the gain through the pre-amp section such that the power-amp must be turned up more to reach the same volume level as before. Swapping V1 changes the initial gain stage of the amp, whereas V2 changes the gain within the tone stack.
You can even try a 12AT7 in V3 which is the phase inverter for the power amp too.
Whatever changes you make in trying to tame this beast, you must remember that this is an inherently loud amp. 40 watts through an efficient speaker makes for a lot of volume.
I started with a 60 watt Blues Deville, downsized to the 40 watt Blues Deluxe, downsized again to a 30 watt Tweed Super clone and ended up at 15 watts of Vox AC15 Top Boost heaven. I use the Tweed Super for really big rooms and outdoor stages whilst the AC15 is used for everything else. At home I use a 5 watt Gretsch amp which is plenty loud when I want some old school distortion at neighbour friendly volumes.
Cheers,
Mark |
Russellhodgson
Username: Russellhodgson
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 6:55 pm: | |
I have a couple of hotrods.. The first one I got was a the Deville 410.. Woah.. Way too much!!! I never use it anymore.. It just sits over at my buddy's place for wayward musicians to stop by and play.... It's not like I didn't like it.. So when a friend got the Hotrod deluxe 112 I was impressed... I thought it would be perfect.. In the end I decided to get the Blues deluxe 112... Let me tell you.. It's a nice enough amp.. But it is still way too loud! The volume control on it is very sensitive.. It really just has one setting.. Crazy loud! I've tried most of the simple ways to control the volume.. I went out and got a volume pedal to try and control the volume.. It works... Most of the time.. But you still don't wanna turn the volume way up on the amp cause it's still way too loud.. Then your not getting the best outta your tubes...Even with the volume pedal! I'm already starting to think about a replacement amp! Something with around half the watts...40 is just too much for a tube amp to play anywheres other than outside or at a large venue.. (for me only a couple of times a year!) I think Fender should re-design these amps to around the 20 watt range.. I think that's more than enough.. If you need more volume just mic it! |
Jchester
Username: Jchester
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 11:56 pm: | |
Isn't that what the "Master" control is for?
I'd think that between "Volume", "Drive" & "More Drive", you could get the sound you're looking for. while still controlling final output volume with "Master".
I'll admit that I've never played with one of these beasties, but from the manual (I just looked at) & playing with lots of others, it seems pretty simple.
Unless we're talking about WAY older models, without the "Master" control, I don't get it. |
Ratfinks3
Username: Ratfinks3
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:48 am: | |
Thanks, you funny guy Fingers. You should be funny guy on TV. lol I like the way my pickups sound all the way open and the amp sounds better opened up a little from the bottom as well. Great info everyone. I see a lot of you had the same problem. The amp sounds great opened up but playing cover songs you can't always do that as I see a lot of you have already encountered. Thanks again for the intel fellow ICW's. I'm sure the combonation of all will send me in the right direction. Rat |
Russellhodgson
Username: Russellhodgson
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 5:55 am: | |
Well... The master wolume only controls the drive channel... and the volume control only controls the clean channel.. I'm not too sure about other models... But on the ones I have that's how it works.. So the master volume has no control over the clean tones.. You have to set both independantly... I'm not sure if thats normal.. But it's the way it seems it has to be done on these models... That goes both for the Blues deluxe and the Hotrod Deville.. This has been my experience.. If anyone can correct me then please do! |
Orval
Username: Orval
Registered: 03-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:20 pm: | |
plug an effect pedal in the effects loop, turn the effect levels off and use the volume control on the pedal to reduce volume levels of all channels on the hrd. tube screamers work good for this. |
Jchester
Username: Jchester
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 11:46 pm: | |
"The master wolume only controls the drive channel... and the volume control only controls the clean channel"
What a f***ed up way to design an amp! They're WAY overthinking it!
Give up on NEW Fenders & find one of Leo's old Music Man 65/210s. Sweetest amp... for ANY style... EVER! It'll let you get to just the clip point you want & still back down to the volume level you want. I used one with a lounge band, back when they were 'the new thing' and it gave me whatever I wanted... at any level I wanted. I wish I hadn't been forced to sell it (by the ex). 
If that's not an option... just patch an attenuator (one that can handle some power) between the amp & speakers. |
Munch
Username: Munch
Registered: 02-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 5:07 am: | |
Hi Jchester,
The idea behind the Fender Blues/Hot Rod line of amps was to make two amps in one.
Firstly the clean channel was supposedly based on a '59 Bassman. As such there is no master volume control, so like an old amp, if you want it to scream, or just get juicy you must turn it up. The problem of course being that the Blues/Hot Rod amps have way too much headroom to be toneful at any sane volume. Additionally the circuit is not really anything like an old Bassman. The only way of getting it to sound similar is to max the mid's and take the bass and treble back to almost nothing.
Secondly, the Drive/More Drive channel is a master volume affair that allows you to crank the gain of the pre-amp whilst adjusting overall volume to taste. So this is a modern channel designed to complement the vintage tones of the clean channel. As a side note, the More Drive button kicks in the unused side of the 12AX7 (a dual triode) in V1. The problem I encountered with the modern channel was that the overdriven character sounds raspy, brittle and edgy, even at modest gain levels. It certainly doesn't deliver the fat juicy compressed sounds of a maxxed small tweed, Vox, Marshall or Valco built combo.
The two channels also share the same tone controls. This is a pain because the underlying EQ of the two channels is very different. A tone setting that works for clean won't sound good for overdrive. Channel switching is therefore problematic.
Because of these tone and volume problems, most players stay on the clean channel and use pedals for overdrive. For such players the master volume is of no help at all!!
The final design aspect was to incorporate universal reverb, tone stack, and effects loop so that literally any player, modern or vintage orientated, could happily use this amp. Unfortunately, IMHO, it aims to deliver so much, but doesn't do any one thing particularly well.
I feel this line of amps was dreamt up in Fender's marketing department, and on paper the concept sounds great. Trouble was though, trying to build such an amp and hit a mid market price point required compromise and lowering of component spec. The result is a capable amp that sells well because it promises a lot and impresses in on the shop floor. The trouble is at the first rehearsal/gig, when you realise it is too loud. Then after you've spent a couple of years figuring out how to live with it, you hear somebody's old Tweed Deluxe etcetera and realise that as well as being too loud, your amp doesn't have the tones inside that the marketer's told you were there.
Cheers,
Mark |
Russellhodgson
Username: Russellhodgson
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 5:54 am: | |
Couldn't agree more! Thats exactly what Im doing now... I just got an ibanez tubscreamer pro and I just use that on the clean channel to avoid any screwing around... But I think this amps days are numbered...Sad really.. I really liked it at first... |
Sixvsix
Username: Sixvsix
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 8:32 am: | |
Ratfink,
Munch is on the right track with his idea of trying the volume pedal in the loop. That may do the trick. However, swapping a few tubes around may alter your tone and you may not like the end result.
Your problem would be easily solved with a pre and power amp set up by using a line mixer between the two units. I use a Rane SM26 mixer between a Custom Audio 3+SE and Boogie 295 Power amp. That way, I can run the power amp flat out if I need it and bring in as much of the pre amp as I require via the master volume control on the line mixer.
I'm thinking that a good tech may be able to mod your amp in a similar way so that you can run the power stage flat out to get them tubes pumping and dial in as much overdrive as you require.
Doing it this way, you won't be using extra audio leads in the set up that will contribute to degrading your tone. I assume you are using good leads like George L's for example?
Whether it's 15,20,30 or a 40 watt amp, tube amps are LOUD. Even the Zvex that Ace put up will drive a 4x12 no problem and man it's pretty hairy.
Let us know what you're gonna do.
six |
Flatbag
Username: Flatbag
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 6:09 pm: | |
Six is right, any tube amp is loud. My amp is 40 watts, switchable to 14.5 watts in Triode mode and it still screams. The guy who built it is now prototyping a 10 watt practice amp (pic below), I went to his place last week and from the street thought I could hear his 40 watter pumping, it was the 10 watter through 2 greenbacks. He has actually made the attenuator I mentioned above to go with this amp and it works perfectly in terms of reducing volume without sacrificing tone.
 |
Munch
Username: Munch
Registered: 02-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 6:28 pm: | |
Hey Flatbag,
Where in Australia are you and who is building your amps? I am quite interested in finding out more about that 10 watter.
Thanks,
Mark |
Flatbag
Username: Flatbag
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 3:10 am: | |
Hi Mark, I'm in Sydney, Duane Ledford is building the little thing above. He's based at Mascot, and sells his amp out of Stagedoor Productions at Alexandria. The 10 watter is still in prototype stages (I'm hoping to get hold of it for a week or two to offer him my thoughts). He's hoping to have it ready for Ausie standards testing and production in a few months time. Not sure what price tag is going on it, but he only makes high quality gear, so it's not to be confused with any ultra-cheap beginners amp like so many practice amps are. That said, the 40 watter I own sells for $1675 which is bloody good for a high quality all valve head here in Australia, he's no rip-off merchant either.
We have some awesome talent in our backyard, check out http://www.guitargear.net.au/discussion/index.php
And Duane's website: www.ledfordamps.com
Cheers
Pete |
Ratfinks3
Username: Ratfinks3
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 3:36 am: | |
Hey guys here is a little devise on ebay that looks tasty for the subject we are on. What do you think? Ever experienced one? Mike
http://cgi.ebay.com/TUBE-AMP-VOLUME-BOX-FOR-FENDER-HOT-ROD-DEVILLE-DELUXE_W0QQit emZ200065159785QQihZ010QQcategoryZ38074QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
Orval
Username: Orval
Registered: 03-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 7:00 pm: | |
the volume box is good, inside is only a pot. you can accomplish the same thing with a pedal plugged into the same loop.
i modded my hrd with the lead pot, bass control, and attenuating jumper as well as fixing the built in resistor problems and now i really like it. |
Sixvsix
Username: Sixvsix
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 6:27 am: | |
It's not just Duane:
http://www.ulbricksound.com/default.asp
htm/www.labsystems.com.au/
http://www.sherlockamps.com/REDUNDANT/Default.htm
six |
Flatbag
Username: Flatbag
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 6:32 am: | |
hey six, you can't add those guys without the master:
http://www.reynolds-valveart.com.au/ |
Ratfinks3
Username: Ratfinks3
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 4:41 am: | |
Orval tell me about your experience again. It looks like it's in line with what I'm looking at. What problems did you encounter in detail?
Thanks |
Orval
Username: Orval
Registered: 03-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 7:01 pm: | |
basically the amp was uncontrollable at low volumes with the lead channel. in a fraction of a number of the dial it was either off or too loud. also, intermittently and after it was fully warmed up sometimes the channel switcher would take off on its own. i did a repair to the resistors to fix the channel switch problem and a couple of simple mods to fix the touchy lead volume, 7 solder points total on the mod. email me and i can send you the info. |
Sixvsix
Username: Sixvsix
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 1:22 am: | |
Flatbag,
I didn't know about him. Thanks for the link mate
six |
Ratfinks3
Username: Ratfinks3
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 4:06 am: | |
I did make some changes on my AS120 while waiting to see what the best route to take on the amp problem. I wax potted my super 58's again, and replaced the three way switch (that was leaking and sticking) with a gibson 3 way and also put .047 orange drop caps in as well. What a difference it made. Actually sound just like my 335 orange lable from 1968. Exactly !!! The 120 just plays better and the tone pots are now Audio Taper TONE POTS not MUFFLE POTS. The 120 is from Cort in 95. Round ears and small headstock. |
Ratfinks3
Username: Ratfinks3
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 1:38 am: | |
Here was my final action: I bought a 10.00 attenuator from Ebay, (Carls custom guitars) and it did the trick. You run it between the power amp out and pre amp in. I can crank it up and drive the tubes and keep the right volume for the room. Thanks everyone. I'm also working on changing the V1 tube to an 12AT7 as some of you suggested. Thanks |
Sixvsix
Username: Sixvsix
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 7:56 am: | |
Rat
Kind of what I had in mind then. Have you checked whether the output transformer is running hotter?
six |
Munch
Username: Munch
Registered: 02-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 3:50 pm: | |
Hey Ratfink,
That's cool. It sounds like the attenuator has done the same trick as the volume pedal I suggested.
A $10 attenuator???? Is it just a volume pot in a box?
The mods you did to your guitar...was it the cap change that made you tone pots work better??
Thanks,
Mark |
Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 5:18 pm: | |
Rat, that's the amp I blew up while testing it out at GC. "The little purple amp" I called it in the Scruggs thread. I guess they just came out with it in purple. They just pulled it out of the box in front of me. I plugged in, The GC guy set volume on 4... and I melted it. You are correct, it's a loud little bugger, before it melts. I want one, although I don't "need" one. |
Ratfinks3
Username: Ratfinks3
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 12:38 am: | |
Munch, I think it was a combonation of all but the caps were the most noticable. They have a very smooth tonal change and do not sound muffled like most tone pots sound on any guitar. The switchcraft 12017 switch was also very good as it had no leaks, thus giving my pickups all the punch they had. The wax potting was missing from my pickups as someone scraped it out and played them naked, so it did make some difference in feedback. But the .047 orange drop caps made the most change. I usedd the small ones that were 600V. Oh yea Munch, volume pot in a box is all it was. Audio taper. I have had no problems yet with any transformer overheating. The Torres amp kit that is supposed to do the trick on this did not work. It just sounded pingy or toooooo bright if you know what I mean. I think I will eventually just change the volume pot in the amp to audio taper and leave it at that since I play directly out of the power amp out jack sometimes with the way my sound guy connects us. I checked and Fender does use Lin. taper pots to make their amps buyer think they blow the roof off at #1 and have that continued power up the scale, but that is a falace. They do until you hit #5 then they are usually as loud as they get and distorted. Nice Trick from Fender. But what can you say to a company that manipulates the strat/squire the way they do. (that's a hole other story I'll explain on some fender web page some day) The AT7 tube change made a little difference but had some micro feedback problems. The hot rod deluxe is a nice amp but needs some work if you use it in the studio or small to large rooms/clubs/churches. Playing covers in any type of music, I'd use a Roland with some varrious effect units if I had to do it over again. Hope this helps. Rat |
Silverstrings
Username: Silverstrings
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 5:36 pm: | |
Hello
I use a Roland JCM77 and it rocks. Albeit with various effects units.
It is a reliable unit that has endured many gigs and more than holds its' own on stage. Must say that my 'dream' amp is a Mesa Boogie MkIV, such tone. One day i will realise that dream, just need to convince my wife. |
Sabeking
Username: Sabeking
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 7:41 am: | |
Perhaps this is an ignorant question, but, can't you just change the volume pot to something that will have a gradual increase?
BTW, strings, I agree on the Roland 77. I had an opportunity to play through one and I loved it...
Stacey |
Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 12:03 pm: | |
I know where there's a Roland 77 for sale right now. They want $350 for it, it's about ten minutes from my home. Pawn shop. I like the JC-120 and I see the 77 in there all the time. |
Jazzzbo
Username: Jazzzbo
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 6:11 pm: | |
I had a Hot Rod Deluxe, but mine had a hiss sound and i didnt want to start messing with it, i think its probably a good amp if you need some decent volume, I picked up a used PEAVEY CLASSIC 30 for my small to medium sized gigs and im very happy with it, i also run a peavey 1x12 ext cab for a little more fullness, for comparison i can tell you the Classic 30 has more volume full out than my Fender DELUXE REVERB, BLACK FACE |
Orval
Username: Orval
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 8:22 pm: | |
the jc55 is the one to look for out of the vintage roland lineup, twin 8's stereo chorus, plenty of volume without being miked, all the good stuff without all the sore arm blues. |
Jazzzbo
Username: Jazzzbo
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 9:44 pm: | |
if your playing with a band, you need a 12" speaker, and at least 30 watts, if your doing a coffee house or small restaurant you can get way with some 8"s, IMHO, of course.. jazzz |
Orval
Username: Orval
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 8:22 am: | |
the jc55 is 55 watts. i prefer 15's actually but the jc55 kicks it. |
Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 8:30 am: | |
I never knew about the 55 Orval, first I've heard of it. The 120 ain't heavy any way but it's basically a "clean" amp. You'd need a pedal or something for dirt. |
Orval
Username: Orval
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 2:19 pm: | |
over the years, i have put together a collection of vintage amps. a collection should have a roland jazz chorus for the clean sound, so i bought a jc120. it was a nice amp but it weighed so much that it was damaging my shoulder joints to carry it, so i sold it.
i came on the jc55, which has the same stereo chorus effect, plenty of power at 55 watts, reverb, and it is one of the lightest amps that i had ever carried. the built in distortion does not please the ear, so a pedal is necessary with this amp.
there is a whole family of the jc starting at 55, 77, 90 and 120 which all have stereo chorus and twin speakers ranging from 8's to 10's and 12's. there are some other jc's that have single speakers but the chorus is mono. |
Sixvsix
Username: Sixvsix
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 11:37 pm: | |
Jazzzbo
30watts. I beg to differ. I use a 64 Deluxe with my band from time to time. It's about 22watts of desert island tone and it's well loud enough.
Sounds like your Deluxe needs a service.
six |
Munch
Username: Munch
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 2:48 am: | |
Hi Jazzbo,
I've got 15 watts in my Vox AC15 and that baby will hang with a loud drummer and the rest of the band no problem! We are the kind of band that uses our amps for stage fill and mike them up for the room.
Cheers,
Mark |
Jazzzbo
Username: Jazzzbo
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 9:51 pm: | |
My feeling is that the Peavey CLASSIC 30 IS LOUDER THAN MY Fender DEluxe reverb at 22 watts, IMHO, |
Jazzzbo
Username: Jazzzbo
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 9:55 pm: | |
PS, i might add that i bought this DELUXE REVERB AMP in around 1963-64, new , ive used it on many a gig, i prefer not to use it out now, it just seems to me that the classic 30 has more volume, cheers- jazzzbo |