Do-It-Yourself Recording Experiences

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Author Message Johns (Johns) Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 6:56 pm:    I thought I'd start a thread on self recording, as I've recently ventured into this arena (spurred on by Mr. Roadstar). It's considerably more intense than I thought. Aside from cassette recorders, the only other experience I've had is with an old reel to reel. Two tracks were enough to lay down a rhythm and lead. When my cassette went kablooey, I thought they MUST be offering digital recorders these days that replace the antiquated magnetic tape. Yes and no. There are little voice recorders, but I quickly got hooked on multi-track units that appear to let you be your own recording studio. GAS strikes again! Taking this road is NOT trivial. The price of an 8-track unit is $500-1000. I bought a used Tascam PortaStudio on eBay for $500. Guess what? You still need mics and cables and preamps and more cables and a CD burner and mic stands and, and, and... I'm up to $850 and haven't even gotten a thing, except for lousy tests recorded. BTW, did you know that there are mics out there that cost over $1000? (The next time you watch a concert on TV or a DVD just count up how many mics you see.) The technical knowledge you need is pretty daunting. If I didn't have so much $$ invested, I might be giving up already! So, now I'm hanging out on BBs badgering people about mic impedance, preamps, condenser vs. dynamic mics, mix downs and gain settings, and how to get everything I need for little $. I'm no longer scavenging on eBay just for Ibanez stuff, but for CD burners that are compatible with my Tascam and other odds and ends. Why? I'm not sure anymore. But I'm definitely going to blame it on Mr. Roadstar when the wife decides she's had enough of this new "mess" cluttering up "her" house and makes me sell the whole shabang at a loss. Then I'll go out and buy a cassette recorder and some 90 minute tapes. Tim_Walker (Tim_Walker) Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 7:44 pm:    John, don't get me started! I been doing it for a living for the last 13 years and it still drives me mad. I've always loved analog multitrack (my 24 track machine cost £8000, 9 years ago...) but started to cave in to peer pressure over the digital thing about 3 years ago. Luckily, I kept the analog too as now I get people specifically asking for it, but I bought a new PC to get my business into the 21st century. The thing is, it never quite does what it's supposed to and that drives me crazy. PC based recording is very clever & useful for editing etc, but it's one big pain in the butt, especially if you're trying to record a 6 piece live rock band! Nah...I go back to the analog every time, run my Atari for midi and edit on the PC...just hoping I can save before it crashes. There are too many format options out there these days, I can't imagine starting from scratch....too confusing. And as a business? Well you just end up spending nearly all the profits on new gear, just to keep up, so you've got to love your job! One thing you didn't mention...headphones....thank god I don't record orchestras! Johns (Johns) Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 8:12 pm:    Tim: What about headphones? Oh, I don't even have any monitoring thing happening, except for headphones. I was thinking about commandering the home stereo for the moment. Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 8:15 pm:    LMAO !! Oh great, I'm in trouble with John's wife too! Lucky for me I'm 3000 miles away Great thread idea, John. I think... Did I forget to mention the peripheral stuff? Oops... Seriously, you don't necessarily NEED outboard preamps or $1000+ mics. A Neumann U-87 ($2400) is a bit of overkill for the home studio. The industry standard mics for live use are Shure SM57 and SM58. They're under $100. My brother and I have been getting great results with AKG C1000S, and Rode NT1 mics. They're $199 each. We also have several CAD22 dynamic mics. They're dirt cheap, but get the job done. I HIGHLY recommend the book "Modern Recording Techniques" for anyone getting into recording. It's well worth the $30. http://www.audioforums.com/bookstore/0672306395.html I'm in the process of setting up my basement studio for recording. I'll try to document the ordeal here as it happens. I'm waiting on my tax refund at the moment. The core of my rig will be a PC running CuBase VST software. The sound card will be an M-Audio Delta 1010. Monitors will either be Event PS-5's or M-Audio SP-5B's. Since I've been using the basement as a practice studio, I already have a 12-channel mixer, several mics, cables and stands. I'll add outboard gear as the budget allows, once the rig is up and running. Cheers Steve Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 8:26 pm:    Tim, I am green with envy! I wish I had the dollars for a 24-track 2" deck, and a Neve, and, and, and... Which 24-track have you got? What console? Got any cool outboard effects? Never give up your analog stuff! My bro and I have got his digital rig pretty well ironed out now. Keep in mind, it's a project studio, not a pro setup. Cheers Steve Tim_Walker (Tim_Walker) Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 8:14 am:    John, Hifi speakers and headphones are fine (& cheaper) don't let anyone tell you otherwise! The AKG c1000 is a great all round mic, but you can get even cheaper than SM58's. Look around for second hand...Beyer M300's are similar, but cheaper. Steve, I have a Tascam MSR 24s 1" 24 track and a 32 channel Soundcraft Ghost, not loads of outboard, most of what I do is live(ish) demo & pre-production for guitar bands. E-mail me with an address & I'll send you a CD. Here's the link again. Voltage Studios Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:49 pm:    Tim, I hear 1" tape is getting tough to find. Has that been a problem for you? John, Most "Pros" will tell you that mixing with headphones is a no-no. Don't let that stop you! A decent pair of phones allows you to work without disturbing anybody. You'll still need to listen to your mixes on different speakers/systems. When we get a mix that sounds good on the monitors, Barry likes to burn it to CD and listen to it in his car and on a boom box. It's amazing how what sounds good on one system, sucks on another! There's a huge difference in recording/mixing/mastering commercial stuff and making home recordings. The fun part, for me, is in the learning. There's a lot of trial and error. Here's a link to some AKG headphones at MF: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=030204093852141199065100431799/search/g=home?q=akg+240 The K240's (all 3 varieties) are very nice IMHO. Cheers Steve Craigjc (Craigjc) Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 1:46 pm:    I agree with Steve. The AKG 240s are really good tools. One thing I've fould out by trial and error...if you're mastering something on home equipment, make your home equipment sound cheap (through EQ, whatever), If the mix sounds good on mediocre sounding stuff, it'll sound good on nice equipment, too. If you mix your stuff so it sounds great on your super sound system, it'll sound like poopy in someone's car. That's where headphones provide an additional perspective - sound without the influence or room acoustics, etc. It's just a good, consistent refernce. CraigJC Tim_Walker (Tim_Walker) Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 3:46 pm:    I agree, listen on as many systems as poss. And yes I have a pair of AKG 240s too. Steve, 1" tape is getting scarce. I get mine online from Studiospares in the UK. My 'local' sources have dried up. Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 5:00 pm:    Let's go in a new direction here. Let's say a guy (okay, it's me) is looking at used 1/2" tape decks (4 or 8 track). Other than TASCAM and Otari, are there any other brands to look for? Any particular models or years to avoid? How does one learn about head alignment? In this brave new digital age, does anybody care? Cheers Steve Tim_Walker (Tim_Walker) Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 7:47 pm:    You may find a Studer (Revox) that does what you want. Also Fostex is one to look out for. I saw a B16 (1/2" 16 track) the other day for only £250. Head alignment is often covered in the machine's manual, I think you just need an oscillator. (and a de-magnetizer....and some cotton buds...and some isopropyl alcohol). The main thing to look for is head wear. You may have trouble & expense getting new heads. Also check the transport & if all track enable buttons & led meters work. Good luck! Paddy_F (Paddy_F) Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 3:11 pm:    I started home recording in 1972 (giving my age away now),with a revox a77, bouncing from channel to channel, 6 bounces and it sounded pretty bad! --- opened a demo studio in 1978 --packed it in by 1992, 14 years of miking up massive crap sounding drum kits and bass players with cabinets the size of wardrobes full of 18" speakers, trying to shake your teeth out, seriously tho, working with novices can be a trifle difficult, not to mention crawling into bed at 5 in the morning completely drained. So now I teach people to fly ultra light aircraft, (students trying to kill you on every landing). Which is worse? I am actually thinking of opening a rehearsal studio incorperating a recording studio as well. I sold the 16 track in 1992, but never sold the desk,(Trident 40 into 8 into 16) mainly because I was not offered a fair price, it was around the time when things were going digital, and anything anologue was worth about a pint of beer. So Ive stored it for ten years cos its too big to go in the home studio (powered up every month or so). Now Im thinking of starting again Ive just been offered the right amount of sheckels. Dooh! Every bedroom studio should have one of these. Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 3:23 pm:    *drools* Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 3:53 pm:    Here's a link that'll cause GAS for some. Not a lot of "Home Studio" stuff, but fun to "window" shop... http://www.odysseyprosound.com/used.html Keep in mind it's all USED gear. I need to win the lottery! Cheers Steve Tim_Walker (Tim_Walker) Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 4:08 pm:    Nice one Paddy! But if they drain you in the studio (I know how you feel!) Then rehearsals will drive you bonkers....sweeping up cigarette ends, mopping up beer stains, trying to find out who stole who's effects pedals, someone bothering you every ten minutes to borrow a pair of pliers....and so on. Still I guess it beats 'working' for a living! Mark_Hartman (Mark_Hartman) Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 7:10 pm:    Great thread idea John! I've recently made further progress into recording and arranging my own guitar/bass/keyboard wankings than I ever did with the old 4-track Fostex (although that was fun!) I actually had an 8-track digital deck with harddrive 2 years ago - but the learning curve was so high it killed my initial enthusiasm. I got 3 songs down...and sold it on ebay after it collected dust for a year. Then I found this interface box, made by Edirol (the UA-20) for $180 and things are SO much better I can't tell ya! But I want to tell everyone! Keep in mind though, this is just me - recording my own playing. This box only has 2 inputs, so it's not good for a live mix with many mikes on seperate channels. But if you've dreamed of writing and recording your own music and having professional results - dream no more! You'll need (and I use): * A computer - duh! Mine is only a Pentium II - 350 Compaq - with a built in soundcard no less! (but that doesn't matter and is not a problem) * Acid Pro software by Sonic Foundry (mouse-based editing - very easy to use and pretty cheap, like $80) * Edirol Capture box (UA-20 model works great, $180) * NO microphone AT ALL! (and NO amp noise to deal with) Yep - I run straight into the Edirol from my pedal, a Digitech RP50 ($80) (which simulates different amps and cabinets anyway). With my bass and keyboard, I run into the box direct - no extra noise to deal with. (unless I specifically want to run through the pedal) But the software will also add effects to a track - distortion, phaser, vibrato - whatever. That's it! I also use Cool Edit 2000, a program that allows editing of sound files (.wav, MP3, etc) - but it's not truly necessary. In fact, I haven't used it that much. So for $260 I am having a ball - creating cool songs that I dreamed of doing back in '81 when I started multitracking with 2-cassette decks. Only now I can have 10, 20, 40 tracks - whatever. I've only encountered computer slow downs (which does suck) when mixing a large number of recorded tracks that are big in size (15 megs and up). This may be my computer speed, or because my harddrive is 90% full, or maybe more RAM would help... Anyway - I am more excited, motivated and enthusiastic about my music now. You can hear some of my tracks here: Marks music tracks Check out Reno Boogie or One Heartbeat Away or Nancy to hear how it sounds when you record this way....(the other songs were done by arranging sound samples that I didn't record myself - before I had the Edirol box) Johnm (Johnm) Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 3:31 am:    Hey Mark, Nice to hear some music from fellow Ibanez lovers. I listened to some bits of your music on my laptop so I can't judge the quality. Love to hear more from others as well. John M Paddy_F (Paddy_F) Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 1:33 pm:    heres a link to pmc monitors [get them mixs sounding good on everybody elses speakers] http://www.pmcloudspeaker.com/contactf.htm checkout the user list Paddy Munch (Munch) Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 8:25 am:    Hi Mark, cool tunes on that website. Well done. Stylistically, your stuff couldn't be further from mine than it already is. My style can best be described as Brian Setzer meets Robert DeNiro's hammer in the back room of a Las Vegas casino!!! The funny thing about visiting your song site was seeing the picture of you. I have always visualised you as unchanged from that dodgy '80's pic of you wearing that Axis t-shirt!!!! How's that for a laugh??? Cheers, Mark Mark_Hartman (Mark_Hartman) Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 5:48 pm:    Hey Mark - that IS a good one! Funny how that happens, the photo becomes who you expect to see...then, time stole my hair! (but that's ok...I wasn't doing anything with it anyhow) But I love getting people's reactions when I show them a photo from the big hair days - they always say "No Way! Who is that...really? That's not you...(long pause while staring in disbelief, grin from the implausiblity fades)...is it?" It cracks me up! Paddy_F (Paddy_F) Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 6:17 am:    I bought an old Roland SRV330 dimentional space reverb yesterday for £180.(whoooeeee)! This unit is as good as the high end lexicons, (pcm 80s and upwards) its really pro for budget money, it sounds warm rich and uncluttered, especially on vocals. Its a serious consideration if you want that pro verb sound. This one goes on my invaluable list. Yesterday was a glorious day, Hallelujah! Paddy. Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 1:32 pm:    Hey Ya'll, Well, things have changed (as usual). Although I have not abandoned my PC based system, I just picked up a TASCAM 238S 8-track cassette deck. First impression is very good. And the price was unbelievable. For $250 (ebay) I got the 238S deck, RC-88 remote control, service manuals, and two 8 channel snakes. The thing is stoopid simple to operate. I laid down a quickie groove/riff thing (4 tracks) last night in about 30 minutes! I'll post more when I've had some time to play with it. For anyone contemplating an analog setup for home use, here's a short list of older TASCAM units I researched: 4-Track Cassette 234 (rack mount deck only) 246 (deck and mixer in one unit) 8-Track Cassette 238 (rack mount deck w/dbx noise reduction) 238S (same as above w/Dolby noise reduction) 488 (mixer and deck in one) 688 (like 488 but with midi capabilities) 8-Track Reel to Reel 388 (1/4" tape deck and mixer in one unit) TRS-8 (1/2" deck only) Any of these can be had for under $500. Check ebay! http://cq-search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?GetResult&query=tascam+%28234%2C238%2C238s%2C246%2C388%2C488%2C688%2Ctsr%29&from=R10&region=41&ht=1&currdisp=2&itemtimedisp=1&combine=y&st=2&allebay=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort Cheers Steve Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 1:44 pm:    Arrggghhhh..... The link doesn't work. Copy and paste this into the ebay search window: tascam (234,238,238s,246,388,488,688,tsr) http://pages.ebay.com/search/items/basicsearch.html Cheers Steve Paddy_F (Paddy_F) Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 5:11 pm:    Several of my friends with home studios have gone back to small desks and anologue recorders and are running them along side their P.C.s, I tend to use the fostex d90 recorder as the master for the time code, and sync the O3D desk and atari to it. The d90 works just like a standard tape deck, except you dont have to wait for it to rewind. I'll make the move eventually to vst, when macs and protools are idiot proof and affordable.-- Keep it simple,-- Ive got enough on trying to play the guitar, -- without trying to get my head round some software that needs a brain the size of the planet to figue it out. Ive been checking out the srv330 dimensional space reverb on the net, if this guy likes it, its good enough for me, he mentions it halfway down the page in an orange dialogue box. Regards Paddy. http://www.spectrasonics.net/interviews/ericpersing.html Funkle (Funkle) Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 5:10 pm:    I'm new to the whole recording thing. I'm starting out with Protools LE (free) on my Apple G3. Going direct from the XLR out on my amp to the 1/8" microphone in on the computer. It's a very simple setup, the only cost is the XLR cable and adapter. I'm sure the system will evolve as I get into it and the need to overcome it's shortcomings. I'm sure I'll end up using some kind of sound card or converter, and upgrading software eventually. But I didn't want to go out and spend a thousand dollars right off the bat, until I figure out what will be the best solution. Tim_Walker (Tim_Walker) Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 6:56 pm:    The sound card thing can be a bit of a minefield too. You really need to ask yourself how many analog ins & outs you require and if you need s/pdif & optical connections too. I use a Guillemot Maxi Studio Isis card with a breakout box. It has 8 ins & 4 outs (plus digital i/o too). That works well for me, even if I want to dump 24 analog tracks into the PC...only 8 at a time, obviously. Cards like Soundblaster Live are very good if you don't need to record lots of simultaneous tracks and they're quite cheap now too. Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 1:54 pm:    The M-Audio Delta series sound cards are top notch. They feature excellent 24bit/96khz converters and prices that won't make your wallet hemorage. The Delta-44 offers basic 4-in/4-out. A couple steps up is the Delta 1010 with 8-in/8-out, MIDI in/out, and S/PDIF. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=030210131143141199065100336197/search/g=home?q=maudio+delta Cheers Steve Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 7:51 pm:    A year ago (see the 4th post in this thread) I said I'd document the progress of converting a room in my basment into a home studio. I kinda dropped the ball... Okay, plan "A" got nixed as my brother lost his studio space and moved his rig into my room. No need for me to build my own! And, I get to use him as AE for my projects. He he he... The rig is based on a home-built PC. I dunno the exact specs, but I can ballpark. 1.8gig AMD Athlon processor, 512meg ssd RAM, 100+ gigabytes of hard drives, Aardvark ARK24 soundcard (8-in, 8-out, plus midi), and a Baby HUI control surface. The outboard gear consists of an Alesis Studio32 mixer and a rack full of preamps, compressors, and effects processors. Due to a lack of space, the workstation is placed near one end of the room. The back wall is about 5 feet behind the engineers chair. So, to provide a better listening environment for mixing, we've done an extensive sound treatment on that wall. Many hours of labor and about $400 dollars later, it's now almost completely free of relections. Between the two of us, we've now got about 25 mics. Nothing exotic or high dollar, but a good variety. More later. Gotta run. Cheers Steve Cooltouch (Cooltouch) Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 12:20 pm:    Hey all, Another interesting thread. I began doing some computer-based recording about five years ago. Started off simply enough -- ran my guitar amp's line-out into my SB Live's line-in. Wrote some MIDI accompaniment, and arranged it in Cakewalk. Well, it snowballed from that point. I've done things "on the cheap," buying what I needed as I could afford it. I feel that my setup is quite capable now, although there are still various pieces I'd like to add as finances permit. All good quality studio gear has one thing in common, I'm finding -- it's all pretty dang expensive. Here are a couple of photos of my home studio. I just now picked up my digicam and shot these pics. If you look closely at my computer monitor's screen, you'll see that I have the Ibanez Collector's site loaded At the heart of my digital-audio workstation (DAW), is a 1.2gig Athlon machine with 704MB RAM and 60gigs of drive space. Inside the box is the old SB Live card (I still like the sound of a few of its MIDI instruments, so I still use it), a Guillemot cart with a Yamaha XG chip (full selection of XG patches, although the digital-analog converters are just so-so), and an M-Audio Delta 66, which is the card I use for all digital audio -- playback and recording. Software-wise, the music machine has Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 (soon to be upgrading to Sonar 3), Logic Audio Platinum, Band-in-a-Box v2004, Studio 6.04 (a decent little notation-based sequencer I use for composition), Samplitude (for final mixdown and CD burning), and several other packages that I use for various other things. Sharing the rack with the music computer (it's the one on the left) is my laser printer, my new Epson 3170 scanner (a great scanner, by the way), and an older 667Mhz PIII machine I use as a file/print/scan server. The next rack down holds my Yamaha PSR500 (an older, but still decent sounding model), the Delta 66's breakout box (covered by a mirror), and a Midiman mini 6 channel mixer that I use for headphones and output to the stereo. Suspended from the rack above is a pair of indoor/outdoor ADS speakers that I use occasionally as a B set. The A set was a pair of Yamahas (one is visible on the left), but they have been disconnected in favor of a set of Alesis Point Sevens that I scored from a pawn shop a few days ago. $89 for the pair -- what a steal! I have them sitting on a bookshelf out of the frame. The bottom rack holds a Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro mixer, an Adcom component stereo system I use for playback and listening to CDs, a Behringer Virtualizer Pro multifx unit, a Behringer Composer Pro compressor, a Roland JV-1010 synth module, and a couple of Midiman Midisport 2x2s. Resting in front of the rack is a Roland GR-33 guitar synth unit, and the guitar leaning against the rack is a Godin ACS SA nylon string, which has the 13-pin jack for the Roland. The Strat visible on the left also has a Roland GK-2ah pickup attached, so I can use it with the GR-33 as well. The mic on the boom stand is a Shure AXS-4 condenser. It works pretty well. I just bought a pair of Shure SM94-LCs that look identical to the AXS-4, but without a on-off switch. They sound noticeable clearer than the AXS-4. I plan to replace it with one of them for studio recording, and I'll use the AXS-4 for live work -- it's certainly good enough for that. What else? Oh, a couple of Marshalls -- a Valvestate VS102R and an 8020, and a Crate GX-40C. Couple of my nylon string acoustics are visible. Out of the frame is my Seagull Artist Folk and my newly acquired Ibanez AE405TV. My Ibanez 2455NT is resting peacefully in its case I have used the above setup to compose and record two CDs worth of music so far. Even though I've assembled it in a budget conscious way, I figure I have at least $5,000 invested in this system so far, excluding the guitars, of course. Best, Michael Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 2:59 pm:    Continued... Helluva setup there, Michael! Glad to see I'm not the only one dealing with clutter. I'm constantly rerouting, bundling, and cleaning up cables. Seems to be a never ending battle! Okay, I forgot to mention monitors. We've got a pair of Event TR-8's. They are self powered units using a bi-amped setup. Very good response and overall sound, although the high mids require some ear training. My early attempts at mixing were too bassy on other systems. We've also a collection of headphones and a headphone distribution amp to power 'em. The software is CubaseSX. We've been using Cubase (by Steinberg) for quite a while. The latest version (SX) is a big step up in user friendliness. Editing and routing are easier and in-the-box mixing benefitted from improved channel displays. I'll try to get some photos up soon. Maybe this weekend since my band will be returning to our sessions. Scratch tracks are done on 11 original songs. Overdubs start Friday. Cheers Steve

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