Maya = Hoshino???

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Author Message   Dutchk9 Username: Dutchk9 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 5:37 pm:    Several experts mention Maya as being one of the Ib-related brands under Hoshino. I'm pretty sure Maya was a brandname under Rokkomann. Has it been taken over at some point?   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 5:57 pm:    Hi, Dutch. Here's a link to the seminal discussion thread on ICW that relates Maya (and other brands, such as Global) to Hoshino: http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/discus/messages/57 51/5879.html -Chuck   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 6:51 pm:    The MAYA factory was in KOBE. It was destroyed by an earth quake during the '90s. http://www.answers.com/topic/gibson-guitar-corpora tion Look under "unauthorized copies". There is no direct relationship between Hoshino and Maya, as far as I know. But they will probably have shared suppliers of hardware and electronics. Like a car manufacturer wouldn't re-invent the wheel to build a car, they BOUGHT these parts from companies like Gotoh, just like Gibson bought parts from Schaller. Ginger   Dutchk9 Username: Dutchk9 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 3:49 am:    Hi Ginger and Chuck, your remarks are exactly my point. Fox (a.o.) said in the thread Chuck referres to: <<I have some info about Ibanezes related trademarks: RELATED TRADEMARKS - IBANEZ (Hoshino Co.Japan) Isonez, Kasuga, Luxor, Halifax, Cimar, Maya, Morris, Global, Sekova, Polaris for European Market>> Confusing. So, unless Hoshino had guitars build in that particular Kobe-factory, the only 'relationship' between Maya and Ibanez seems to be that both Rokkomann and Hoshino were sometimes shopping at the same hardware stores, right?   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:08 am:    I think I have also quoted that list once. It was on some private website. I was looking for info about Kasuga. Anyway, Kobe is near mount Maya, so the factory was named after the mountain. Ginger   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:48 am:    I checked whether I could find the original website, from which I once copied that list, but it is gone. But what I see now is that several others copied that list of Japanese brands and state that they would be related to Ibanez. THERE IS NO PROOF OF THAT FOR SOME OF THESE BRANDS! Herr Meinl says Kasuga produced Ibanez guitars. I believe him. Ginger   Fox Username: Fox Registered: 2-2003 Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 7:10 am:    Ginger, don't shout, no need for that.. I quote: "THERE IS NO PROOF OF THAT FOR SOME OF THESE BRANDS! " and I must admit, that the list (not conclusive) that you are referring, is not correct, eg. Morris-brand belongs to Moridaira. However, some evidence shows, that Morris-brand instruments have run through Hoshino dealer/importers, and have been sent by Hoshino. Perhaps some kind of joint-venture trading, who can tell for sure. You must understand the "modus operandi" of the instrument production in Japan, or generally in the far East. Kasuga factory, as factory, not brand, had relations to different "traders", Tokai, Hoshino, Kanda Shokai, and most certainly I believe that they have built some Ibanezes as well. The "genealogy" of Japanese instruments is unfortunately quite shrouded, and hard to find out, due to the old tradition of instrument-building there, I mean that many factories have several "shadow factories", small or bigger workshops etc.. Sorry I've posted such inconclusive list here in the first place. Perhaps You and Herr Meinl can put up a better one?? fox   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:31 am:    I take an evolutionary biologist's perspective when determining whether or not brands are directly related to Hoshino. Thus, I examine the fossils. We've seen Custom Agents, in particular, that are identical (and a unique enough design to assume they are not just Gibson copies), and branded as Ibanez, Antoria, Crestwood, Electa, and one more, I think, that I can't remember. That to me is proof that those are all Hoshino-related brands. We also have a transitional fossil, a missing link, between Antoria and Ibanez, an L5 copy that is branded Antoria but with an Ibanez label inside: http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/discus/messages/21 420/1001488.html But so far, there's been no Maya CA. Here are a couple other deep-linked threads on the Hoshino brands and the Antoria Models: Early history on Ibanez brand: http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/discus/messages/26 32/2849.html Pictures from an Antoria catalog, showing CA's and a Black Eagle bass: http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/discus/messages/17 /12464.html#POST33291   Bassassin Username: Bassassin Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:47 pm:    "We've seen Custom Agents, in particular, that are identical (and a unique enough design to assume they are not just Gibson copies), and branded as Ibanez, Antoria, Crestwood, Electa, and one more, I think, that I can't remember. That to me is proof that those are all Hoshino-related brands." I understand where you're coming from here - but what reason is there to assume they were anything other than Fujigen's in-house designs, rebranded to any customer's specification? Antoria, for example, is known to be a brand that was owned by JT Coppock Ltd, of Leeds, UK during the 70s. Given that they were directly competing with (and undercutting) a largely identical Ibanez range (imported by C. Summerfield Ltd - who also had their own CSL range of Fujigens) it would seem desperately implausible that Hoshino would have had anything to do with their business operation. Jon.   Chucke99 Username: Chucke99 Registered: 2-2007 Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 9:42 pm:    If someone can show me a Greco Custom Agent, I'll start believing that Fujigen distributed the model to Hoshino and other companies. But for now, all I've seen and read leads me to believe that Hoshino had that design and that they stuck their various brands on it. Remember the Antoria/Ibanez missing link guitar (link above). I think it's more than just a manufacturing mistake. But then again, and I really mean this: I'm not an expert. I just read a lot on this forum and make my own assumptions. So I could be wrong.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 4:03 am:    Fox, I just felt that I had to emphasize that, although it is an interesting list, there is no proof for some of these brands, because... I felt guilty because I helped to spread that list... some time ago... Now the original author of the list has taken it of the web, probably because he got better knowledge or at least serious doubts, and we must not spread it any further without the remark that we are in doubt. There's nothing wrong with doubt: it's the beginning of all science. If nobody would have had doubts, we would still assume we are living on a flat disk with the sun and the moon moving around us. Anyway, Herr Meinl's list was a very short one, with only three guitar manufacturers of the early days of Ibanez: Fuji Gen Gakki, Kasuga and Chu Sin Gakki (which I never heard of, but that's interesting knowledge). http://www.vintage-ibanez-museum.de/ibanezhistory. htm When you do a search for the other brands within this article, you won't find Maya, which was a manufacturer, not just a trademark or trading company. Hoshino might have played a role in the distribution, because they did that for other firms (such as Vantage/Samick) too. But I found no proof of that either. Ginger   Bassassin Username: Bassassin Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 12:55 pm:    "If someone can show me a Greco Custom Agent, I'll start believing that Fujigen distributed the model to Hoshino and other companies." Perhaps Greco/Kanda Shokai didn't think they had a market for that model, & chose not to carry it. I'm a big fan of Rickenbacker bass copies, but here in the UK I've never seen an Antoria 2388b/2389b equivalent. The only Fujigen-built Rick copies I've seen here are by Ibanez. It's not that the model was particularly unpopular - there were versions by Aria, Shaftesbury, CMI, Arbiter, Hondo, Kasuga, Maya and so on, but I just assume that JT Coppock decided to stick with the Fender/Gibson style ranges, and didn't bother importing the Rick bass copies. (Of course, I just may have never seen one - yet!) Like you, I'm no particular expert, and my conclusions are simply drawn from what I see. I just can't understand how it would have made any kind of business sense for Hoshino to have two identical UK ranges, in competition with each other! And regarding the "missing link" - to me it's just a production-line slip up. The label is glued inside the guitar body while it is being built & before any finish is applied, it moves to the next stage of production, one batch has an Antoria logo, the next has an Ibanez. This one goes in the wrong batch - a simple error! Somewhere, there's an Ibanez with an Antoria label inside it, which has been confusing its various owners for 30 years! Jon.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 2:34 pm:    The fact that a trading company that's operating on one very particular market (such as Japan or the UK) did not buy a certain model, is normally due to the fact that that particular market is considered not to be interested in the model. The link between those identical guitars with different brands is NOT one the customers (Hoshino or Kanda Shokai or whatever trading company), but the manufacturer. Whether, in the case of the 2355m (an ES-175 replica, not an L-5 replica btw) it was Fuji Gen Gakki, is possible and often assumed but as Herr Reinhold Meinl states, there were at least two more manufacturers who produced for Hoshino (mentioned above). IF Maya played a role in the production process, that would be the only logical link. The role of Hoshino is that of any private label customer of the factory: they order an x number of guitars with one or more labels (for different markets), and they pay them. No more, no less. In the replica era they even didn't play a role in the design. The 2355m model from Ibanez, Antoria, Bradley... and you name them are technically the same guitars. It is possible that Hoshino asked to put different pickups in their private label guitars, since we don't know whether the pickups of the 2355m Bradley say "Super 70" or not, but Phatphred could check..., if he feels like it that is... I know a little about one of the other two mentioned pre-1987 manufacturers: Kasuga, since I have a 1972 Tele Custom (1 HB, 1 SC, 4 pots and a lovely flamed maple neck). But what do we know about Chu Sin Gakki? I think there's a whole unexplored field open. - Who were they? - Where were they? - What did they make and for whom? - Which Ibanez types came from them? - When was that? What I'm thinking of for instance, is: were they involved in making these bolt-on semi-acoustics with the zero-fret, such as Freak's Ventura? Now, that's interesting stuff to dig in! For the possible role of Maya in Kobe in the production process of Ibanez guitars it seems better to send Jim Donahue a brief e-mail. A closed question takes not so much time to answer: Were they involved? a) yes b) no c) don't know If the answer is a) yes, - when were they involved? - and what did they make (acoustics, classical guitars, solids only, boxes only, mixed)? Ginger   Bassassin Username: Bassassin Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 3:21 pm:    Ginger - I'd assume that Chu Sin & Chushin Gakki are one & the same. I first encountered Chushin while researching an interesting original design bass that appeared on Ebay a couple of years ago. It was branded "Azumi" and a bit of Googling connected this name with Chushin, a builder I was previously unaware of. Turns out they've built MIJ Jacksons & Charvels since the 80s, and apparently still do. The name's also connected to the BC Rich & Robin brands. No clue as to what connection they had to Hoshino, but it's a start! J.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 4:45 pm:    Knowing the correct spelling of the name is certainly a start. Now we have something Google can find on the web: http://www.music-trade.co.jp/etc.html It is not complete nor error-free, but it's from Japan, so geographically close to original sources. Ginger   Dutchk9 Username: Dutchk9 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 5:24 pm:    Hey guys, I never meant to start WW3 here ... just trying to find out where Rokkomann fits in to all of this. I understand it's complicated matter, but at GuitarDir we are trying to figure out the connections between the brands, manufacturers, traders and exporters in Japan between the 60's and the end of the last century, too. At this point, (El)Maya and Rokkomann are my targets of investigation. Please don't regard us as a hostile entity, all of us will profit from the information we gather. I've missed Rokkomann in this discussion, whom I believe to be the main distributor of Maya/ElMaya guitars during that era. Kees.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 7:07 pm:    We discussed that last February. This is how far we got then... http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/discus/messages/21 420/314.html#POST60768 Then there was this Maya EM-1500 on the Marktplaats a few months ago. Maybe the Fries Wietse can give you some more info: http://www.gitaarnet.nl/forum/printthread.php?t=75 052&pp=40 Ginger   Bassassin Username: Bassassin Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 8:41 pm:    "Hey guys, I never meant to start WW3 here..." Don't worry about it! This is exactly the sort of debate & discussion forums like this one thrive on, and for many of the people who post here, Ibanez & other Hoshino brands are just one part of a broader interest in guitars from this era. Personally, I certainly welcome your contribution - the more people digging up info & trying to make sense of it, the better. Re; Maya/Rokkoman - Having studied & compared a few examples, I'm now sure that a number of UK importers' brands, including Columbus & Avon, were sourced from the same factory as Maya - I've seen LPs, SGs & P basses which are absolutely identical apart from the name. This is enough to pretty much convince me that at least some of the aforementioned brands are re-badged Mayas. As for who the factory was - what I've read suggests that Rokkoman was a Kobe-based trading company which owned the Maya & El Maya brands - and also owned their own manufacturing facility. Stop me if you've heard this one before... Jon.   Dutchk9 Username: Dutchk9 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 5:15 am:    Thanks Ginger and Jon, this confirms and strengthens my earier findings. To further support your theories, how about this LP? Kees.   Bassassin Username: Bassassin Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 5:46 am:    Looks familiar? Ebay Item #200171626991 Ebay Item #180179973824 Thanks for that Kees - looks like pretty convincing support for my theory! I'll take a wild guess that this will be bolt-neck, ply body with a hollow top, and those pickups may well be single coils hiding in humbucker cases. And the neckplate will have "Made In Japan" stamped on its upper part. We also now know that there are two "n"s in Rokkomann. I've never seen a Rokkomann branded guitar before - do you know where it was sold under this brand, and do you know of any other models? Fascinating! J.   Dutchk9 Username: Dutchk9 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 8:21 am:    Your 'wild guesses' are just about right, exept for the fact that the Rokkomann LP has 'true' humbuckers. Another distinctive detail: the block inlays are not MOP or perloid, but aluminium. I haven't encountered any other Rokkomann-branded guitar yet either. 'Found' this one here in the Netherlands, and there was an early 80's sticker from a Dutch music store on the back of the head. No telling for sure how and where they got it, of course. Ginger; Wietse 'the Fries' has already donated a number of pics and specs to GuitarDir (and will continue to do so, I hope), and I will certainly consult him as this quest continues. Kees.   Bassassin Username: Bassassin Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 11:59 am:    I had a Columbus LP copy in the 80s (bought it very secondhand in '84) and the inlays were the same - silver & metallic looking. I also recently had a 70s Columbus Jazz bass with inlays of the same material. Both instruments were playable & fairly well-constructed (although the neck pocket in the Jazz was a mess) but Columbus was very much a budget brand in the UK - so it's likely the importer would have specified the cheaper single coil pickups as an option. My first 6-string guitar was a Columbus SG copy (I still have it, in a way - but that's another story) - it was quite different. The neck was similar to the style we see on older MIJ guitars, with inlays only up to the 17th fret, and these were actual MoP, as opposed to pearloid or silver metal. I think the body was solid, rather than ply, but it did have fake humbuckers. Wonder if it was a Rokkomann product? J.   Dutchk9 Username: Dutchk9 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 4:08 am:    The relationship between Maya (brand, Kobe factory) and Rokkomann(brand, trading company) has been established, as far as I'm concerned. So is the one between Maya and Columbus (brand), and between Columbus and Rokkomann. For the late 70's LP, that is. I know (brand) Maya has distributed a wide range of qualities; from an LP-shaped flat piece of plywood with the cheapest electronics and hardware one can imagine, to very nicely build set-neck (semi-)hollow ES-copies. I'd say it's only logical to assume the same goes for Columbus. There is of course a chance Columbus (brand) has been taken over at some point, but I have found no info to support that. Untill someone proves me wrong, I'd stick to the conclusion that your Columbus SG is indeed a Rokkomann product. Kees.

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