Matsumoto made Aria?

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Author Message   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 5:28 pm:    I have a very nice Aria classical model HFA587, serial 449, that was supposedly made in Matsumoto around 1970. The materials & build quality are excellent, & I wondered if this would be the same facility that made some contemporary Ibanez guitars?   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:18 pm:    i don't think so. but they do build les pauls for gibson. they also built electra and i think dixon. and they as good a japanese guitar as any. sorry guys.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 5:28 pm:    MatsumoTO is not a factory, but a town. MatsumoKU is a company that was involved in the production of Aria (Pro II) guitars. Here you can read something about the history of Matsumoku: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsumoku But I'm not sure if all classical Aria (AC model) guitars were built by Matsumoku in the 70s. I know Aria first moved production to Korea (AK models) which cost a lot of customers, because the real Spanish brand got BETTER than Aria. Then they started the new AC series, built in SPAIN with solid cedar tops. Nowadays Alhambra from Spain is the leading brand, next to Tatay Tomas/ Juan Salvador who make the cheaper guitars with a solid top. Aria, once leader in the market of classical guitars for starting and advanced classical guitar students, actually let it slip through their fingers during the Korean adventure, because the lack of solid top models. The production of Epiphones for Gibson was something of the past. As you can read, Matsumoku closed down in 1987. Ginger   Fox Username: Fox Registered: 2-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 6:12 pm:    And, as Ginger wrote: "The production of Epiphones for Gibson was something of the past. As you can read, Matsumoku closed down in 1987. " As stated in various books, Epiphone/Gibson launched it's Les Paul line no earlier than 1988, same time Ni'hon Gibson (Gibson Japan) announced the Orville/Orville by Gibson line, so we come to this conclusion, that this is again one "Internet myth" busted. The "G"-brand gets a lot of disinformation in the net for some reason or another.. In fact, a lot of those guitars (Japanese, that is) were made by Hoshino Group's favourite factory, Fuji Gen Gakki. Not Matsumoku's factories.   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 4:39 am:    Although I love Gibson, have owned many and currently have a few great Les Pauls, my heart sinks when I see a new Epiphone dressed up as a Les Paul or a SG. Gibson have totally trivialised the Epiphone brand especially over the past few years. Fortunately I have a 54' Zephyr Regent from those glory days that I cherish and will never quit staring at with a huge grin attched to my face six   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 8:35 am:    Gibson just employed standard ruthless business practice when they bought out Epiphone in 1957. Same as Rolls Royce did with the Bentley, or Harley does now with the Indian label. Buy out the main competition, & then cheapen it down. Some Epi's were still higher grade instruments into the 60's, but basically most Epi's after '57 do not compare to their earlier, genuine namesakes. I once had a '61 Casino with P-90's that was pretty nice, but it was still just a glorified Harmony compared to any 30's or 40's "real" Epi's. Epiphone Les Pauls make me puke, they are firewood for the pimple-faced three power chord contingent, IMNSHO. They are like a Harley with an Indian label on the tank....sacrilage! Sorry, but I also own a '39 Indian & I distain what I consider to be fakes. I've had a '38 Triumph for 35+ years, and no Epiphone by Gibson can touch it in any way. Not even close. I've played Super 400's, and my Epi doesn't sound or play inferior AFAIC. 30's & 40's Epi's are as well made, & they perform just as well, as any vintage f-holes I've ever had the pleasure to play....and they are better than most. I'm sure Epi must have made some duds, but I've never run into one...their standard was uniformally very high back then. Even their cheap models were great sounding & playing instruments. The Triumph was my first real guitar, and it is the last one I would ever willingly part with. Somebody will have to pry my cold dead hands off it with a crowbar, to get it when I am gone. If it's some punk who then hacks it up & ruins it, I will haunt the poor SOB to his grave. I guess you could say that I am pretty deeply attached to my Epi, and of course all the above is just IMO & only worth what it cost anyone who reads it....not much. No offense to fake Epiphone owners, I'm just a cranky, crusty, and opinionated old picker. I'd still like an Emperor someday, but I'd have to sell my Indian to afford it anymore..ha ha...not happening I'm afraid.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 9:34 am:    You are absolutely right Ubetcha. Epiphone WAS a better archtop brand than Gibson in the past. As a matter of fact, Les Paul made his "log" in the workshop of Epi Stathopoulo. I know the old Triumph from the '30s, because my friend and luthier Harry had one for sale. The lower bout was wider than all Gibson I know. But Gibson is from Chicago, right? I think there was a bit of Capone mentality involved. Ginger   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 1:58 pm:    UB, You might wanna check your info on the Harley / Indian connection. Harley's "Main Competiton" comes from Japan. Indian stopped making bikes in 1954. The current "Indian" motorcycles have no affiliation with HD. In fact, according to their website, they aren't even producing any bikes right now. http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/ The Bear   Paul_a Username: Paul_a Registered: 8-2002 Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 3:30 pm:    Epi was in trouble several years before Gibson bought the company. Some Gibson built Epis were more expensive than their Gibson counterparts. The Triumph was 7/8" narrower than the Gibson Super-400.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 6:13 pm:    I never had a Super 400 in my hands. I read its lower bout was 18" The lower bout of the Triumph was 17-3/8" So the difference is 5/8" in favour of the Super 400. Because I play a Super V copy, I'm used to the L-5 body size. I should have checked the body size of the Super 400, just didn't feel like it. Fact is that Epiphone deserves a better status than fulfilling the same role for Gibson like Squier does for Fender. It shows a lack of respect. Just two portraits next to each other at the office is not enough. Ginger   Fox Username: Fox Registered: 2-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 8:43 pm:    Paul wrote: "Epi was in trouble several years before Gibson bought the company." Completely true, and there is absolutely no reason to make any "Chicago mafia" remarks of that deal (IMHO).. The true story can be easily read in quite a lot books.. Epiphone, Inc was just about to go under, when Gibson bought the NAME... (True, they got a couple of truckloads of bits, pieces etc. too) But, definitely no "foul play" was involved... "Some Gibson built Epis were more expensive than their Gibson counterparts." This is completely true too, and this thing plus fierce competition and lack of resources led to the closing of Epiphone line in Kalamazoo 1969, and the opening of Far-East operation in 1970. Same thing had happened with Fender-Squier, Martin-Sigma and some other instrument makers.. "The Triumph was 7/8" narrower than the Gibson Super-400." Guess the Super-400 was not a familiar model... Epi Emperor (the original) Is very near the size of Super 400, and as loud as Super 400, but both will lose in comparison with little bigger Strombergs.   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:15 pm:    I suppose that a Master 400 Stromberg, with a 19" lower bout, would probably be louder than my Epiphone. I will stipulate that it is very likely, but I've never played or even seen one in person. The last Master 400 I saw up for sale was $70,000. Cutaways (7 known) are even more. Unless I were to win the lottery, such instruments are outside my consideration & more museum pieces than players guitars. I'm not interested in them, other than anecdotally, unless I find one in an old garage someday. My Epi Triumph is only worth ~2K, but even at that I hesitate to gig with it. I've seen & had too many axes walk off while somebody's back was turned, & I don't want to lose this one because I could never replace it. I've been an Indian rider for as long as I've been picking the guitar, and it's off-topic so I won't comment any further except to say that I seriously doubt that anyone on this board can possibly tell me anything about real Indian motorcycles which I don't already know. Guitars OK...Indians no way. Read me what Co. name is on the motor of one of those fake new "Indians". Nuff said.   Fox Username: Fox Registered: 2-2003 Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:18 pm:    Ubetcha, the Triumph is truly a fine guitar, in no way was I goin' to say it's inferior in any way.. That my Stromberg-comment was only for comparison, have not seen one either.. What comes to motorcyckles, I have almost no knowledge what-so-ever.. I know that there are a couple real old Indians in museums here in Finland.. I'm more familiar with British motorbikes, as well as some Jap's.. (Like Triumph Trident and Kawasaki 350 3-cylinder..)   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 9:46 pm:    Fox, there are some running 741 model Indians somewhere in Finland, because I've sold some parts thru Ebay to their owners. Ex-military models.   Fox Username: Fox Registered: 2-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 7:19 am:    Ubetcha, that might well be, there are a great number of "old motorcycle"-clubs here, one guy who was in our band (a truck-driver) sold just his grand-dads old BSA to one such club.. Must keep my eyes open in summer.. ;)   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 12:47 pm:    Read me what Co. name is on the motor of one of those fake new "Indians". RevTech or S&S. The Bear   Ubetcha Username: Ubetcha Registered: 7-2006 Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 4:22 pm:    They take Evo's & tweak them, using different accessories, & then they put their own logo on them, licensed by Charley Doodleson. Inside the cases it still says HD. A genuine Indian has a flathead motor, except for a few experimentals & one-off factory racers. The late 40's OHV Arrows etc. were the bastard children that put the nails in the coffin, and they are spurned by aficianados. At that time, both Indian's & HD's only other competition was the new British imports like Triumph & BSA. Indian tried to retool & produce completely new models in the European style. HD did not. Indian folded, & HD took over their market share...but even still they almost went under 20+ years later when the Japanese took over the US market. It was only by having Japanese engineers design the Evo, and changing to the cruiser style & incorporating some traditional Indian styling & looks, that HD managed to pull their biscuits out of the fire. You are correct in that HD has not directly bought the Indian name, but they have tried to steal the Indian mystique & appeal, & that is sacrilage to an old Indian lover. I don't expect you to understand, but I am sincere in my distain for fake Indians. Old school here, too old to change.   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 2:49 am:    Too old to change, or too old to pay attention? HD has nothing to do with Indian. That "mystique" and "appeal" put 'em out of business 50+ years ago. You really think HD needs to "steal" that? Ride yer bike(s) and be happy. If you get out this way you can ride with me and my friends. Unless your too proud to ride with the likes of Honda, Yamaha, Triumph, and yes, Harley Davidson. The Bear   Japanguitar Username: Japanguitar Registered: 5-2007 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 11:47 am:    Matsumoku went out of business but they did make some Grecos in the 1970's including some of the Greco Strats in the late 1970's (they have a backplate with Matsumoku stamped on it). The Greco strats became Fender Japan strats in 1982. Matsumoku probably made some Ibanez guitars in the 1970's and 1980's as well although Fuji Gen made most of the Grecos and Ibanez's in the late 1970's early 1980's.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 4:59 pm:    It's interesting to read that there are some Greco strats with Matsumoku stamps on it. It tells us something about the era before Fender Japan was established. Quote from Tony Bacon and Paul Day: "The Fender Book", 1st edition 1992, page 45-48: "So with the blessing of CBS, negotiations began with two Japanese distributors, Kanda Shokai and Yamano Music, to establish the Fender Japan company, and the joint venture was officially established in March 1982. There are six votes on the fender Japan board: Fender USA have three, Kanda two and Yamano on. Fender USA also have 38 per cent of the total stock, "More important than control of the board, we own the licenses", Smith clarifies. "We license them to build the products, so really are in control. Of course Fender Japan determine which models the need for their own market, although we have final approval." After discussions with Tokai, Kawai and others, the factory finally chosen to build guitars for Fender Japan was Fuji Gen-Gakki, bases in Matsumoto, some 130 miles north-west of Tokyo. Fuji was best known in the west for the excellence of their Ibanez-branded instruments. "Kanda Shokai had been selling Greco copies of Fender", recalls Smith, "and Fuji had been making those, so to be honest they were pretty well prepared to make Fender guitars." Then on page 49: "The Start of Squier" Fender Japan's guitars at this stage were made only for the internal Japanese market, but Fender's European agents were putting pressure on the Fullerton management: a budget-priced Fender was needed to compete with the multitude of exported models being sold in Europe and elsewhere by other Japanese manufacturers. So Fender Japan made some less costly versions of the Vintage re-issues for European distriution. These were distinguished at first by the addition of a small Squier Series logo to the tip of the headstock. This was soon changed with a large 'Squier' brand replacing the Fender logo. Thus the Squier brand was born. The name came from a string-making company, VC Squier of Michigan, that CBS had acquired in 1965. [...]" Ginger   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 10:36 pm:    at a music store here in louisville, i saw a poster on the wall. it said "the new legend of the les paul" followed by photo's of several gibson branded les pauls. below the pics- tak matsumoku any ideas on what or how old that might be? these were not epi's but gibsons   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 4:15 am:    Wow, sounds interesting. I sure would like to see that one, but I guess it's to big for the scanner. Perhaps there's a small copyright print on it with a year. Ginger   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 9:05 am:    i'll try to get a photo of the poster. and look for a date. and post it asap   Cmangeot Username: Cmangeot Registered: 4-2005 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 4:28 pm:    TB, you in louisville, I'm in Cincinnati!   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 10:21 pm:    yeah , in st. matthews section.there's a guitar show in june . columbus i think. you going? ginger, looked at the poster today.will get pic tommorrow.no copyright date. on other side, is a picture of a reissue futura. with the dates 1983 to 1985. that gives an idea when it was done. obviously '85 or later   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 12:42 am:    here's a shot of the poster. the quailty is fair. (cell phone camera)   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 9:29 am:    The title says "Tak MatumoTO, That's a Japanese guitarist, not a factory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tak_Matsumoto So he was just another endorser for Gibson. Ginger   Tbplayer Username: Tbplayer Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 12:10 pm:    well, like i said in an earlier post what is this? now i know. there is no mention of him as an artist or of any album. i suppose he is "the next les" thanks for the research TB   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 8:16 am:    I'm a Ducati man myself six   Mr_roadstar Username: Mr_roadstar Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 1:30 pm:    Monster !! Gawd, they sound good... The Bear   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 1:40 am:    Bear, I'll send you a soundclip of their V4 GP bike. Now that is something else. six

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